Transcript of President Jacob Zuma's replies to oral questions in the national assembly, Parliament, March 17 2011:
Question 3: Mr M G P Lekota (Cope) to ask the President of the Republic:
Given the history of this country where people who were fighting for freedom were killed by an undemocratic regime, what are the reasons for his Government's initial silence when the regime of Colonel M Gaddafi killed hundreds of people who were rising up against his regime? NO790E
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon members and hon Speaker, South Africa does not operate in a vacuum on international matters. It operates within the ambit of the African Union, AU, and the United Nations, UN.
We regarded the Libyan situation very seriously from the beginning and the government has not been silent or inactive on this matter. We began engaging with other heads of states and government on this matter when events started unfolding, as we were very concerned about the situation. The South African government has also spoken out in various platforms on this matter. We called on all parties involved to exercise restraint in order to prevent further loss of life.
We also called on the government and people of Libya to seek a speedy and peaceful resolution to the current crisis in accordance with the will of the people.
Furthermore, on 26 February 2011, at the United Nations Security Council, the South African government, through its permanent representative, Ambassador Baso Sangqu, condemned the loss of civilian lives in Libya. The Minister and Deputy Ministers of International Relations and Co-operation as well as other government representatives have also spoken out on the loss of life in various public platforms. We have also expressed our views directly to the Libyan leader, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, regarding the unacceptable violence and loss of civilian lives.
The AU is seized with the matter and South Africa will work under the guidance and leadership of the AU. The AU has appointed a high level panel consisting of Uganda, South Africa, Republic of Congo, Mauritania and Mali to attend to the matter. Given the urgency of the matter and the panel has begun its work already. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Speaker, arising out of the hon President's reply, the history of our country is very mindful about the struggles for human rights and justice. We had a regime in this country which denied us political rights. As we fought for that struggle, the international community recognise the fact that it turned its weapons on our people for seeking those rights; the consequence of which we were able to win support for apartheid to be classified as a crime against humanity.
We are facing with a situation in Libya today, in which after 40 years of dictatorship, ordinary citizens struggle for their rights and a regime of Gaddafi turns weapons on them. Are you, Sir and our government, prepared to lead our nation to mount a similar campaign against Gaddafi and his regime so that the world must condemn Gaddafi and his actions at the present time for being committing a crime against humanity? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the world has started condemning Gaddafi. I don't think it would be inspired by us by marching in the streets to say, condemn Gaddafi. I think it has done so and we have done so as well. I think the world is in discussion, as I speak for the second time, in the United Nations Security Council on measures to be further taken.
You will either think that you need to mobilise people to march on the streets if there was nothing happening. In that way, will you be trying to call upon the attention of the world to stand up and do something? We are already doing something together with the world. Within the organisations that we belong to, United Nations, the AU and the Arab League are also engaged in this situation.
And certainly, we have said we don't agree. We are doing exactly what other countries did against apartheid. What we have not done is to march like anti-apartheid movements. We don't think that time has really came. We are doing as a state within the organisations that are there now and all we can do is to ensuring that we stop the killings in Libya. We are participating in a committee charged by AU to lead the continent in resolving the situation on the ground. So, we are certainly doing everything we can. [Applause.]
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Mr President, I guess the question is, what does one has to do when he or she discover that his or her family friend is Jack the Ripper? You are telling us that we are going with the slow of the world. There are widespread reports that the Butcher of Tripoli financed your personal defence when you were in trouble before the elections and that he also financed the ANC.
What I do know is that, during your inauguration, he was welcomed as the greatest hero. He has had to be introduced twice because the first time around he was not introduced as the Leader of the Revolution and all your protocol people endorsed the madness of introducing him twice. Should we not rather lead than follow? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, order! Order, hon members!
Dr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Should we not get ahead of the United Kingdom and France in asking for sanctions? Should we not send arms to the rebels who are asking for them from the West? Isn't an Africa's responsibility to promote democracy? Do we really want the rebels to be armed from outside Africa? [Interjections.] [Time expired.] Let us lead rather than follow. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, [Applause.] the fact that people cheered Gaddafi when he came to the inauguration I don't know where it comes in, because he has been cheered to wherever he goes. And the fact that, at some point, Gaddafi supported organisations and liberation organisations are matters of history. Indeed, he did so, whether he supported a person or not, he is neither here nor there.
We are dealing with the situation in Libya wherein he is shooting his people and we are operating within the AU. Now, I don't understand how people would understand South Africa that how it could get out from the AU framework to do its own things because it is South Africa; do we want to prove a point for what? We want to be effective and we are operating within the AU within the United Nations together with other organisations.
As to the rumours that you have, just talk to those who gave you rumours, they might help you. [Laughter.] Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr K S MUBU: Hon Speaker and Mr President, firstly, the Arab League recently suggested that no-fly zone be imposed on Libya. Would your government support that suggestion? Secondly, if Muammar Gaddafi was to be brought before the International Criminal Court today, would you support such a move for his violation of human rights in Libya? Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the matter of whether there should be a boycott or closure of the airspace of Libya is under discussion at the Security Council. There are proposals that are being made yesterday; there were too many resolutions and today there is a consolidated resolution that has been made. People have been asking very pertinent question on that particular aspect. I don't think I want to prejudge what is happening in the United Nations. South Africa is represented and it is participating in the discussions, it will certainly take a decision that will be in accordance with the beliefs of the South Africans. That is a respond to your question on airspace.
With regard to the question on taking Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court, I don't think we as sitting here could dream about that. I think if people have been investigated and indeed discovered that there were crimes committed, therefore anyone who must face the law, he or she must face it in the international arena. We have never retreated on that issue. But we can't again conclude the matter before it is done. Nobody has established that. I know that there is a resolution that was taken. Resolutions are taken by people on judging what happened. But if we believe in the rule of law, we don't judge a person before. Even the establishment of the facts whether indeed there are crimes committed warranting for a person to be charged in the International Criminal Court, that has got to be determine. I don't think here in our Parliament we should then begin to determine those kinds of things. Once proper decisions are taken, we will certainly take the correct decision. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Speaker and hon President, firstly, does South African government fully implemented the United Nations Security Council Resolution No 1970, which amongst others caused for a freeze of the assets belonging to the specific Libyan individuals and entities named in that resolution? Secondly, President, what exactly did you say in your telephonic conversation with Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. Thank you. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I have repeatedly said that in this continent we belong to an organisation called the AU. Matters are discussed in the AU and resolutions are taken there. It will be very strange that the AU takes a collective decisions and South Africa does its own things. We have to move with the AU so that we take the same decision that this continent would agree to implement collectively. And that's what we have done, not what we think as an individual country. So, that has been the position and it is clear.
As to the telephonic discussion with Gaddafi, I indicated in my reply at the beginning that, as part of our intervention, I discussed with Gaddafi and condemned the actions he is undertaking and said to him that he is wrong and he must stop doing it. From my point of view, that was as a country. So, that's what we discussed and there was no secret about that.
Although, of course, a telephonic conversation between two people is a matter of those people. [Applause.] But, for your just sake, I am telling you what we talked about. We talked about the Security Council that's why South Africa was among those who condemns. And we said it correctly because he is violating the rights of the people. We said it to him, not only through other organisations. That will help you because you are inquisitive. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Source: Unrevised Transcript, Hansard, March 17 2011
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