Tony Leon should apologise for Hlophe remarks - JHA

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance condemns in the strongest possible terms former DA leader Tony Leon for the scurrilous, scandalous and unwarranted personal attacks on Judge President Hlophe and other black judges, which are calculated to bring the judges, the judiciary and the administration of justice into disrepute (see article). The Alliance calls on the public to reject Leon's despicable racially divisive tactics, and for right-thinking members of the public to fully support Judge President Hlophe and to rally behind the rejuvenated campaign to have him appointed as the next Chief Justice of the Republic.

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance notes with extreme sadness that Tony Leon, a Jewish South Africa citizen, has blatantly imported and invoked language and tactics from Israeli politics in an effort to slander the Judge President.  Just two years ago, an Israeli member of parliament, Effi Eitam's declared that Israel should expel West Bank Palestinians and bar Israeli Arabs from political life, since the latter are "a fifth column, a league of traitors."  

During the fighting in Gaza and Lebanon such tones were increasingly rising in the Knesset and even Knesset Members from Arab parties were charged with being "traitors and a fifth column" by their Jewish detractors (see here.) This philosophy of politics by stigmatizing fits in neatly with the "rhetoric of 'extermination' described by Abir Koptyin in an article entitled "Fifth column forever? Why is Arab criticism always labelled as conspiracy to destroy Israel?"  He states:

"Whenever Arabs speak up and voice criticism that does not flatter Israel's policies, this criticism is labelled as an attempt to destroy and exterminate. Every time the question of the relationship between the State and its Arabs citizens is on the political and media agenda in Israel, many opinion leaders choose to consistently make use of rhetoric of "extermination."... The rhetoric and myth regarding the "threat" are used to reject any criticism or proposal for change. This even shapes to a large extent the perception of the Arab public being an "enemy" and apparently legitimizes the continuation of hostile policies towards it instead of reaching a mutual understanding."  

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance warns Leon and others against starting or introducing into our society a racist discourse that could replicate the Arab-Israeli eternal strife.

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance cautions that attacking black judges on spurious grounds is rapidly becoming one of the favourite pastimes and hobbies of white politicians from the Democratic Alliance.  Given our odious apartheid legacy and racially-based political culture, such comments claiming black judges are "fifth column" members who should be denied appointment to positions on the Constitutional Court contain coded political messages that are provocative and inflammatory.  

If left unchecked they can take members of the Public down the same dead-end road these racist politicians had taken our country during apartheid. The tragic result would be that Blacks will believe that they can only get justice from African judges and whites will feel the same way. The Justice for Hlophe Alliance urges all right-thinking South Africans to condemn the filthy politics of division, opportunism and appeal to bigotry manifest in Leon's statement.  

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance lets it be known that it will not allow the likes of Leon to take pot shots at the black judiciary, knowing full well that judges cannot defend themselves publicly.  Justice is too precious a commodity and should not be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. We demand that Leon apologize unconditionally for his incendiary remarks against Judge President Hlophe.

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance will be embarking on a proactive, focussed, unapologetic and aggressive campaign to expose the schemes and stratagems employed by those who seek to derail Judge President Hlophe's well-deserved elevation to the position of Chief Justice of the Republic.   We cannot sit idly by when Leon and his racist allies are besmirching an outstanding man, Judge President Hlophe and are now threatening to blackmail President Zuma and the ANC into voting down his nomination as Chief Justice.

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance reminds all our compatriots of the following basic facts about Judge President Hlophe. He is amply qualified to serve on the Constitutional Court. Hlophe has five university degrees, including a Masters and a PHD from Cambridge University in the UK, which is amongst the leading universities in the world. That is a feat that stands unmatched and unrivalled by any of the Chief Justices at the helm of our constitutional court since the advent of our democracy.  He was the youngest judge ever appointed to head the second largest court in our country and has years of experience in private practice and the academic world where he served as a law professor.  

Every judicial nominee ought to be treated with decency and fairness. But Hlophe particularly deserves a healthy dose of respect, as he is a genuine South African hero who rose from a very impoverished background, reached the pinnacle of success, rejected phenomenal wealth he could have amassed in the private sector (BEE world) and made a deliberate choice to dedicate his life to public service. His performance on the bench has clearly shown him to be a pillar of transformation and an architect for a non-racist judicial system.  

There were several judgments including one in favour of De Lille of the ID, another landmark ruling affirming the right of poor and illiterate shack- dwellers to receive their notices in their mother tongue instead of English.  Hlophe has staunchly advocated the right of access to courts and has championed the use of African languages in our courts.

Hlophe is also a brilliant legal scholar who has published law review articles including "The role of judges in a transformed South Africa" (1995).  He has also mentored and groomed some of the judges who are now gracing the constitutional court and the Supreme Court of Appeal.  And that is not all - Hlophe emerged many years ago as an expert on the doctrine of legitimate expectation.  His published scholarly works on the subject has been quoted extensively in German, US, British and Australian law journals and is frequently relied upon by our courts. 

His scholarly contribution on the subject has been described by the Concourt itself as part of "a rich academic discussion." Hlophe's approach on the doctrine was later praised and emulated by the Namibian Chief Justice in a case involving permit applications and legitimate expectations. He lauded Hlophe for having "lucidly and succinctly stated the principles pertaining to the substitution of the functionary's decision" and legitimate expectations. 

The Justice for Hlophe Alliance reminds all our compatriots that no serious participants in South African public dialog want to see the debate around judicial independence and transformation stifled by resort to accusations of racism.  Yet many very serious, and very vocal, white participants in the debate around Hlophe prey upon gullibility and fear about affirmative action, demonizing ideas and people alike. 

The way toward better race-neutral discourse on the judiciary is itself only clear when lit by truthful dialog and respect for all members of the judiciary, not just whites.   That goes for Hlophe as well - his leading role as a champion and martyr of transformation shall withstand all hidden agendas to derail his judicial career, including his elevation to the top. 

Statement issued by Adv. Khayelihle Thango and Mr. Percy Gumbi of the Justice for Hlophe Alliance KZN Chapter, June 16 2009

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During the Spanish Civil War, General Emilio Mola was asked which of his four army columns would capture Madrid. He replied: 'The Fifth Column.' This was a reference to citizens inside the capital loyal to Franco. Thus the term 'fifth columnist' entered the political lexicon — a reference to members of the community with a loyalty to the state, or a constitutional body, but determined to strike a blow, perhaps a crippling one, against it. I’m beginning to get the feeling that Western Cape Judge President John Hlophe and his outriders have become home-grown vandalisers of our constitution."

Tony Leon, Sunday Times June 7 2009

 

Related links

Articles:

Hands off judge Hlophe! »

Justice for Hlophe Alliance condemns Bizos and Mpathi »

JSC operating like a kangaroo court - Justice for Hlophe »

SCA ruling on Hlophe a travesty of justice - JFH »

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responses to this article

what has this got to do with israel what are they on about? how the hell has israel any bearing on this what so ever? one can only conculde a deep anti semetic belief.........what is ironic though, is the "counter revolutionaries" label that is placed on anyone with divergent views of the . .more anc...... . .less by onlooker on June 16 2009, 18:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

This is a lightly refried version of Paul Ngobeni's article.... from last week's m&g. The bizarre borderline anti-Semitism seems new though. by Gus Gosling on June 16 2009, 21:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I think this is what it has to do with Isreal What has this got to do with Israel? Some comments: Some weeks ago I talked to an overseas visitor about Israel, Obama and the like. He made some fascinating comments, and if his insights become mainstream in the West, then Israel is doomed. I . .more must say that I got this feeling of deja vu. Replace Israel with SA, and I could have listened to an anti-apartheid activist, circa 1980. His main point? That Isreal is the last remaining outpost of the European Colonial Project, and like all former colonies in Africa and the Mid-East, she will revert back to her natural state, more similar to the current Mid-East states such as Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. He absolutely rolled his eyes at the idea of Israel as a Jewish state, calling the idea of an ethnic democracy old-fashioned and colonial. Israel is doomed. I also recall a prediction by Kissinger about this. He was asked what the long term prognosis was for Israel as a Jewish state (in 1970). Apparently he gave a thumbs down, but did not say a word. This, I think, is what this has to do with Israel? . .less by JVR on June 16 2009, 21:32 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

what a cheek.. Hlophe was caught with his pants down trying to influence a decision by the JSC. Incredible that his black brothers have the audacity to defend the indefensible, nay try to hoist this crook to the top of the judicial pile. by rayjay on June 16 2009, 22:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Incomprehensible Incomprehensible rubbish designed to distract attention from Hlope's racist and illegal behaviour. by Peter on June 16 2009, 23:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

trashy mish mash I can't believe it is an advocate who concocted this divisive piece of trash. How did Khayelihle Thango become and advocate? How did Hlophe become a judge? Why would a guy with questionable morals be allowed to be a judge of the highest court? And why on . .more earth should Tony Leon apologize for his truthful piece? . .less by Jabulile Ngubane on June 17 2009, 00:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I Applaud Leon for his honest and accurate article. Do not try to misdirect the focus with this utter rubbish you have written. Other advocates must be cringing at this OPINION piece, which does not seem to have any basis in fact. by Peter on June 17 2009, 03:59 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@JVR so between you and your mate, you have decided that israel is a colonial outpost that won't exist? so, what is your middle east solution then, another holocaust? what is the natural state like lebanon, jordan and syria? these are all sovreign . .more countries, which is exactly what israel is? . .less by onlooker on June 17 2009, 06:41 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Its the new SA Trash the constitution, promote the crooks & slime-balls to the top of the food chain, play the race card .... and call it transformation. The article by the JHA is nonsensical mumbo-jumbo. by Petr on June 17 2009, 06:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The JHA is an anti-semitic anti-white organisation which proclaims that "justice is precious" yet canvasses for a person who is the very antithesis of what one expects a judge to be, for appointment as Chief Justice. It will be remembered that Hlope found . .more against a fellow judge in favour of a company whilst he was in their employ, he called a senior advocate "a piece of white S***", and he improperly tried to influence fellow judges to find in favour of Jacob Zuma in a case in which he was not involved; "sacrificing justice on the altar of political expediency" as it were. Is this failed and contentious judge to be our Chief Justice? Heaven help us. I note the things the JHA will not allow; are we supposed to be terrified? . .less by flebus on June 17 2009, 07:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

drivel I have just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading this garbage by ack on June 17 2009, 07:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

It won't be garbage when Hlophe is sworn in as CJ XXXX by Joe Jika on June 17 2009, 08:37 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

JHA This is starting to become a very familiar refrain. Don't in any shape or form deal with the issue at hand. Hysterically start screaming racism and apartheid and silence any commentary. Wow to believe an advocate wrote this. Advocates I have known over . .more the years.... must be embarrassed to see this type of commentary reflecting on their profession. . .less by Charlie Chaplin on June 17 2009, 09:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The problem with having "5 Degrees and a Cambridge PhD" Having read a little about Hlophe's activities over the past few years, it seems to me that his intentions are good, but he's just not as clever as he thinks he is. This is unfortunately a common trait among the lettered... the belief that tha ability to . .more absorb and rehash doctrine is the same as the ability think clearly and critically. It seems to me that he has strong political aims (though not necessarily ANC-centred) and is trying to use his position as a judge to see these achieved, at the cost of judicial independence. Perhaps he feels (as people do) that it's ok because he's the one doing it and his intention is good. He must be brought to a sticky halt in a hurry. As for these Charlies... Leon's blog (I checked) had no mention of race; not even a subtle undertone. So first impressions are correct, they are trying to cut his throat with the race card; a pity for them it's been so badly and frequently used that its edge is getting a little dull. Oh and JvR, I'm not often given to personal insults, so I'll just get to my point: Israel's fate has nothing to do with this issue, nor Leon's blog. In case you missed it, the authors here are using racist rhetoric against Leon because he's Jewish and Israel seems to provide lots of ammunition. . .less by M on June 17 2009, 09:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

If this is what counts for legal argument these days, anyone can be a lawyer Just a couple points. -Dont' you think if I replaced "Arab" with "White" and "Israel" with "South Africa", you would be the ones who take anything Leon says and make it a race issue (even when it's not)? - Are Moseneke and Langa not . .more black?, and is it not Hlophe who is attacking them and not some faceless white politician? - Did anyone doubt Hlophe's credentials?. What do these have to do with whether he tried influencing the Zuma case or not? - What does this all have to do with Loen being Jewish?. don't you think it was in bad taste to bring this up, especially since it does not help you "argument" at all? - Finally, please tell me where you practise, so I make sure I'm never represented by you in court. You've missed the ball, played the man, and didn't even do a good enough job of it. I could discredit Leon 10 times better in my sleep, you Sirs are amarteurs . .less by Khulgaz on June 17 2009, 10:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Smoke and mirrors I don't like Leon but he is right this time. A corrupt and partisan judge in the highest office? Lack of independance in the judiciary is a big indicator of the demise of SA. What next ... President for Life Alliance? by Dont be fooled on June 17 2009, 10:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Use politics to get out of personal troubles Hlophe is using politics (like Zuma) to get out of personal troubles. SA should rather appoint people who does not have personal problems. by Jan on June 17 2009, 11:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Abusive rubbish written by idiots We live in an era where people have to grovel and apologise for saying the right thing. Unfortunately this completely over the top, and anti semitic piece by Khayelihle Thango and co, only serves to show them up as racists, defending the indefensible . .more simply because their hero is black. What is the relevance of all this drivel on the middle East? If John Thlope was white this piece would not have even been written. They say Leons' words were "calculated" to bring black judges into disrepute!. No fine Sirs, they do that perfectly well themselves! Since Hlophe has bashed his way onto the scene, he has never been out of the news for all the wrong reasons. We also have Judge Nkola Motata who has been fighting drunk driving charges for the last couple of years at huge expense to the tax payer (anyone with half a brain can see he was inebriated). These men drag the name of the SA justice system through the mud.If people like Khayelihle Thango and co were not so hung up on race and blindingly supporting their brothers in arms, they would probably have been rightfully kicked out of law all together a long time ago. By defending these villains because of their skin colour, Thango insults those black judges that are doing sterling work. . .less by Airwolf on June 17 2009, 11:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I concur with the majority judgement... I know I'm not adding anything new to the discussion, but what absolute nonsense from the JHA (two men, half a brain and a fax machine?). Why does Hlope have right to become CJ, given his patent weaknesses? What has Tony Leon's argument got to do with . .more what one Effi Eitam said two years ago in the Knesset? Does the argument (if you can call it that) even make sense to the two gentlemen who penned it? Does Hlope thinks it makes sense? . .less by Jacques on June 17 2009, 11:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hlophe's damning violations (Tony Leon should apologise for Hlophe remarks) We don't need "spurious grounds" to despise John Hlophe, whom we would have no reason to fear if the ANC was not waging an assault on the non-ANC-dependent judiciary with the help of Hlophe and his fan club. Hlolphe repeatedly indicted his own . .more integrity with violations which his supporters clearly condone, even as the Judicial Service Commission did several violations ago, before Chief Justice Pius Langa and the entire Constitutional Court were compelled to defend themselves against Hlophe. God help the black populace of this crumbling outpost of African civilisation when Hlophe's fan club (the entire Black Lawyers Association?) inevitably takes over the judiciary that's supposed to uphold SA's constitution. . .less by Siegfried Hannig on June 17 2009, 12:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Thango and Gumbi, You are sabotaging Hlophe Judge Hlophe's efforts to raise respect for black lawyers are been completely undermined by Thango & Gumbi who, like Mpshe's "judgement", bring black lawyers into ridicule. Leon quoted a SPANISH general by way of background. By relating this to . .more Israel it shows your stupidity & anti-semitism (racism) as does your failure to rebut any of his assertions. Blustering wildly you fail to substantiate your claims. Competent judges like Langa, Moseneke, Ngoepe or Tshabala escape criticism from the "racist critics"; blacks like you (& whites) pushing trash like this will continue to be criticised - get used to it. To campaign for a man to be Chief Justice whose fitness to be a judge at all is yet to be resolved brings your judgement into question. Furthermore you give no reason why Hlophe should be appointed before other more experienced, more senior and more respected (black) judges. You do address why so many black judges on ConCourt are against your hero; you fail to mention that the only member of the JSC to dissent from that body (with its black majority) is well-known as a black racist. Nor do you deal with his racist past. Above all, you are now bringing politics and USA-style campaigning into the appointment of judges. By doing so you yourselves are 5th-columning SA justice. . .less by Theseus on June 17 2009, 12:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Justice Hlophe Judge explains Business Day Published: 2009/06/12 07:07:06 AM With reference to Aubrey Matshiqi?s column (Hlophe and stubborn case of race, June 5) and the letter from Justin Lewis (Real slight is against . .more constitution, June 11). For the record, nowhere in my ?controversial? judgment dealing with the Hlophe matter did I refer to ?white? cultural tradition. What I had in mind was the English boarding school tradition and the attitude of my mother. Am I the only one to remember being told: ?Stop snivelling and pull yourself together, boy!?? Nigel Willis Chambers, High Court, Johannesburg . .less by Justin Lewis on June 17 2009, 13:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Justice Hlophe My Reply Sent today: Friday the 12th of June 2009 His Lordships explanation is most welcome and encouraging. It is to his credit that the judicial cloak is not closed on issues relating to our constitution and we are honoured, . .more privileged and encouraged by his response. However I trust that if the defence of ones constitutional rights is equivalent to "snivelling", then one can only hope that our nation catches a cold. The fact remains that the very same conduct that the concourt judges complained against Justice Hlophe for, the Chairman of the JSC and the Minister of Justice has received similar complaints against certain white judges from the Western Cape. Whether or not the complaint enjoys the same attention might well address Mr Matshiqui?s concerns relating to the race issue. Operation Lucifer currently underway by the SAPS confirms the extent of the alleged corruption relating to these complaints, despite the fact that the NPA has to date avoided all possible opportunities of addressing certain issues related to these investigations. I am sure that your Lordship will agree that unless all our citizens fiercely defend their rights and our constitution which is the cornerstone of our young democracy based on fundamental human rights and equity, . .less by Justin Lewis on June 17 2009, 13:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

What a load of unintelligible twaddle The writers should be tarred with the same brush with which Hlophe has already managed to tar himself and in the process retard true transformation in this country. by Al on June 17 2009, 13:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

On the contrary I see the writers want Hlophe as chief justice. I will immediately be condemned, by Hlophe supporters, as racist if I try to point out that the man clearly does not possess the qualitiies we should be looking for in a chief justice. Although I really . .more do not have a problem with any other judges in this country, whether black white pink or green, who all seem to be doing sterling jobs and seem to be the correct calibre. Even Judge Motata, raised by another writer here, seems to be an excellent judge although he has effed up royally. Hey, everyone screws up sometime and this is what he seemed to have done when he crashed his car while drunk. His real problem was how he conducted his court case.... Back to Hlophe. II wonder how he managed to slip through the cracks to get as far as he has. . .less by Al on June 17 2009, 13:37 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mr Justice Hlope Does the Judge not write his own script. I recall the Oasis matter, and then the matter of his sons position with a law firm, then all the other allegations about him which made the press over time. They were racism, the judicial interference and then the . .more litigation. As I recall it the Cape Bar have no confidence in him and so it goes on. Most of the judges appointed since 1994 come from historicall disadvantaged backgrounds and yet they seem to behave properly as we would expect from our judiciary. . .less by David on June 17 2009, 14:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Ominous Signs of things to come under Hlope and his racist sidekicks. This is the beginnig of the end of the court and eventually the legal system in SA.I am a lawyer and find this kind of brainless racist twaddle becoming the norm these days-especially among the newer . .more advocates who represents the demographic majority of the population. No common sense or logic.As soon as it hits the CC our legal system is toast. . .less by Krazy on June 17 2009, 14:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Last paragraph of the Thango/Gumbi tirade How is it possible to ever have "better race-neutral discourse" on any matter if, whenever a "white" makes a statement in the slightest way capable of being construed as negative towards a "black", outraged howls of RACISM emanate as a knee-jerk reaction . .more from a horde of "blacks"? The "debate" then immediately shifts to the negatives of the alleged racist character of whites. It seems race-neutral discourse is a figment of the imagination as black-on-black discourse on many matters often degenerates into mindless attacks on whites. Judge Hlophe seems to be trying to single-handedly destroy the judicial system in this country. (If I'm white, this statement is racist; if I'm black this is the result of me being in cahoots with whites, or maybe even belonging to COPE.) Don't even try to have an inter-racial discussion on it. . .less by mpho on June 17 2009, 14:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Achiever 5 degrees,this guy is good and have achieved a lot at a very young age.Most of you guys are just armchair critic who holds just average qualifications if any......just stop the jealus. by Jan on June 17 2009, 15:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@JVR : Harsh practices See a list of some of the previous regime's harsh practices in the last comment following the sixth article in the blog of 14/6/2009. by mpho on June 17 2009, 16:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Jan Hey Jan, having 5 degrees doesn't give you emotional intelligence or necessarily mean your brain is properly wired (as we can clearly see) ...even if he had 20 degrees this article would be a load of rubbish ...and I still wouldn't be "jealus" ... by Airwolf on June 17 2009, 16:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hlope C'mon guys, do not waste your time arguing with the Black Lawyers Assn. or Justice for Hlope Alliance. You are wasting your time and intellect by using reason, moral rectitude or logic with them. These are foreign and toally uncomprehensible concepts to . .more them, and absolutely trumped by black solidarity and victimhood. Why bother bitching, whineing and grizzling when whatever you do or say will not make the smallest difference. We SHALL be ruled by the imbecelic likes of Zuma, Vavi, B.L.A. Malema and Hlope. Stuff your money offshore until you cannot take it any more then push off. . .less by Ivan Moor on June 17 2009, 16:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

This article is idiotic in the extreme The total absence of any logic whatsoever defies understanding. Ivan Moor is right trying to reason with people who defend corrupt judges - who take money from parties about whom they issue decisions and then claim to have persmission from a person who is . .more dead does not make sense. One just has to see the mess the Eskom management made of Eskom to know that allowing Hlope to continue his career will have the same effect on the administration of justice. . .less by semaarnet on June 17 2009, 17:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

hi guys Can somebody out there run a check on Hlophe's five degrees? We all remember Carl Niehaus and all his degrees.Might be interesting. by jsb on June 17 2009, 21:45 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Is it a harsh practise, yes or no. @mpho -- I was not talking about the previous regimes (or the ANC in 1960-90) harsh practices..., nor did I deny such practices. I was asking if the idea that Afrikaner kids can get an education at school or university in Afrikaans from Afrikaners is a . .more harsh practice. Is it? Just yes or no. Is it harsh for Afrikaners to perpetuate themselves? If it is, are you suggesting extinction? . .less by JVR on June 17 2009, 22:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

onlooker - I was giving you a sentiment which is apparently growing overseas. @onlooker: I was not giving you above my own views on Israel, but that of a Western visitor. This view (of Israel as a result of the Western colonial project) is a growing one, and I evaluate it as very dangerous to Israel because it subverts . .more the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state (that is, it assumes that Israel is Arab land stolen from Palestinians). In other words, it maps states such as Rhodesia and Apartheid SA onto Israel as if Israel is in the same category as an European colonial project. As a Boer, I cannot fight Israel's war. As it is, many Jews are now also turning against Israel as a Jewish state, and Jews will eventually be denied, as Afrikaners already are, geographical self-determination. Of course, this means NO self-determination. . .less by JVR on June 17 2009, 22:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ JVR What's geographical self-determination?. Is this the same as the far-right Zionist concept of expelling all non-Jews out of Israel?, even Arab-Israelis who've been there for centuries?, a Israel for Jews kind of thinking? So the Afrikaners one . .more would be what?, a little piece of land on the west coast, for Afrikaners only. Would I being black be allowed to come stay there, and bring say 2 million other blacks?, run for civil office, and that kind of thing?. If yes, than what's the difference between that and Bloemfontein?. If no, then do you really think we'd ever allow you to build a country within our borders where we will not be allowed in? . .less by KhulGaz on June 18 2009, 10:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

You could apply to immigrate... KhulGaz -- Geographical Self-determination is what Italians, Libians, Greeks, Iraniana, English, Portuguese, Swedes, Finns, Icelanders, Russians, Madagascans, Sothos (in Lesotho, Swazis (Swaziland), Tswanas (Botswana), Ethiopeans, Moroccans, Egyptians, . .more Chileans, and so many more people already have. Geographically a single language and self-determination as an ethnic group, unilingual institutions, and so on. This is what Jews in Israel wants (and have in some measure). If there was an Afrikaner Homeland, with recognized borders, then you would not have the right to run there for parliament (as you do not have the right to rule Afrikaners, or to run for parliament in Russia). You could apply to immigrate though, and that would be considered just as Canada and Oz considers who might immigrate into their societies. Nor could you claim such a country by simply bringing two million foreigners to take it over. Elsewhere, that is known as an invasion. Now I do not think Afrikaners ever claimed a right to run Lesotho or Swaziland, or desired to take those states over. Your sentiments stink. . .less by JVR on June 18 2009, 15:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

In my own country??!! JVR - Let me get this straight, you come here, find people already settled here, put them in ghettos, after many decades of struggle, those people are freed, and turn around and forgive you, trying to build a country with you, you in turn get upset over . .more corrective measures undertaken, and sulk and demand your own little piece of Africa, where no doubt you'll continue the discriminatory practises of the past?. You try going to Europe right now, hanging around for a couple hundred years and demanding a peice of land where the original inhabitants will not be allowed in, try it. So I'll probably need a passport to visit your little corner - sounds very familiar, like a DOMPASS!!. You might as well move into my home, occupy a room and tell me I need your permission to come and go. Look JVR, we cannot allow this Homeland thing to happen. No nation would, and what's happenign in Isreal proves that. The UN forced it upon Palestine, unfortunately for you, the humane way in which the Afrikaner has been treated (considering what COULD have happened) means there's unsifficient justification. The quicker you forget this Boeremag nationalism, and get with the programe of being South African, the better your outlook will be. . .less by KhulGaz on June 19 2009, 09:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

By the way England is full of the non-English. They have communities, schools, churches etc. If all the Pakistanis suddenly demanded a piece of England where the English would need passports to get in, guess what the English would say?. Why would Africans say . .more yes? In fact, if all the England based Afrikaans people who've run away from SA demanded a piece of England, recognised borders nogal, what do you think the English would say JVR?. You have no problem complying with their laws and customs, being ruled by them, but here you seem to struggle. Why?. . .less by KhulGaz on June 19 2009, 10:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

These readers are dyslexic You went on about race and forgot what the JHA said, "The Justice for Hlophe Alliance reminds all our compatriots that no serious participants in South African public dialog want to see the debate around judicial independence and transformation stifled by . .more resort to accusations of racism. " It takes a racist to recognise one, remember that good people. Learn to read properly before you judge . .less by Ian on June 19 2009, 16:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

you have lost my goodwill KhulGaz You have a distorted view of SAcan history - clearly your brain is wired for propaganda, rather than dispassionate truths. As for England being full of foreigners -- they are made to speak English, and are made to melt into . .more the English Nation. If all goes well in England, these peoples descendants will be English in two generations (they themselves will be culturally and linguistically extinct - this is the fate you wish on Boers). If all does not go well in England, then there will be civil war in England in two generations, between Anglos and others. People like you have the worst sentiments possible in humanity - the desire to dominate and drive to extinction peoples other than you. Many European states by the way, are now so civilized that they have learned to live and let live - Switzerland uses cantons to accommodate diverse languages and cultures. Just try to impose German in an Italian language school in an Italian canton... As for SA - it is on the way to fail. Funny how all Southern Acan states fail after the pure Africans take over and impose their politics on everyone else. By that time, there will be no other choice but to circle the wagons. Either that, or emigrate. And no, I will not help you in any way - for that, you have lost my goodwill sometime in the Mbeki years. . .less by JVR on June 19 2009, 16:31 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Oxymorons "Justice for Hlophe Alliance"? How can one use "Justice" and "Hlope" in the same sentence? The case against him is so clearcut that ordinary mortals wonder why it is still dragging on. Yet there are trained lawyers around who seem to have problems . .more understanding the sheer simplicity of the case. I should like Mr Hlope to know in advance that, should I accidentally commit a serious offence, and am brought up before him, I shall insist that he recuse himself in oirder to ensure that I get a fair and competent trial. I imagine that all sensible lawyers will advise their clients to do the same. Let the man face a perpetually empty dock until he gets bored and takes up full-time politics. . .less by Neelsie on June 19 2009, 16:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who is Israel "This account of how the State of Israel came into being does not take religious matters into consideration, but is based purely and simply on political, geographical, geopolitical and economic factors. It is difficult to arrive at a starting point when . .more dealing with the history of any country, but after almost fifteen years of research, I have pinned down Oct. 31,1914 as the beginning of events that led to the founding of Israel. The history of one country cannot be separated from that of its neighbors, and this applies especially when it comes to an historical account of Israel. Lord Horatio Kitchener, fresh from his success in putting an end to the sovereign independent Boer Republics in South Africa, was turned loose on the Middle East by the Committee of 300 acting through the British Foreign Office. The British government had been scheming and plotting against the Turkish Ottoman Empire since 1899, and by 1914, was ready to make its final move to bring down the 400-year old dynasty. The Committee of 300 plan was to involve Arabs through false promises, and use Arabian forces to do Britain's dirty work, as we saw in the chapter which showed how Col. Thomas Lawrence was used for this purpose. . .less by Freedom on June 20 2009, 14:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who is Israel Continued... The first step in this direction was a meeting between Hussein, the grand Sherif of Mecca, bastion of the Hashemites, and Lord Kitchener. Hussein was offered a guarantee of independence for his assistance against the Turks. Full . .more negotiations began in July of 1915. At these meetings, the British government repeatedly assured Sherif Hussein that Jewish immigration to Palestine would never be allowed, which, as I detailed in earlier chapters, was the only thing that would guarantee Hussein's participation. Even before the negotiations for complete independence for Mecca got under way, emissaries of the British government met secretly with members of the Abdul Aziz and Wahabi families to discuss British cooperation in helping these two families subjugate the city-states of Arabia. The strategy was to get Hussein and his military forces to help drive the Turks out of Egypt, Palestine, Jordan and Arabia by promising Hussein and the leaders of Arabia's city-states that Jewish immigration into Palestine would not be permitted. The second part of the strategy called for the Abdul Aziz and Wahabi forces (armed, trained and financed by Britain) to bring all independent city-states in Arabia under their control while the city-state's leaders alongside Hussein were busy fighting Britain's war against the Turks. The overall plan, proposed by Lord Kitchener, was discussed by the British government on July 24,1914. But it was not until Oct. 24,1914 that the British government gave its answer. The Arab territories, with certain exceptions in Syria, "in which Great Britain is free to act without detriment to her ally, France," would be respected. On Jan. 30, 1916, Britain accepted Hussein's proposals, which, in essence were that in return for his help, Hussein would be declared king of Hijaz and would rule the Arab people. . .less by Freedom on June 20 2009, 14:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who is Israel Continued... On June 27,1916, Hussein proclaimed the establishment of the Arab State, and was proclaimed king of the Hijaz on October 29. On Nov. 6,1916, Britain, France and Russia recognized Hussein as the head of Arab peoples and the king of Hijaz. . .more Were the Abdul Aziz and Wahabi families disturbed by the contradiction in the terms of their agreement with Great Britain? Apparently not, for the simple reason that they were informed in advance of these developments, and knew that they were no more than a needed deception to be played out on Hussein. The years 1915 and 1917 saw the British government meeting with leaders of the World Zionist Congress to determine how best to implement its long-planned Jewish immigration into Palestine. An agreement was reached to send MI6 agents to Arabia to help train the Abdul Aziz and Wahabi armies. Britain, France and Russia held a secret meeting on April 26, 1916, agreeing that Palestine would be placed under international administration. None of the Arabs were informed, although British Foreign Office documents infer that leaders of the World Zionist Congress were notified in advance of the meeting and advised on its purpose. Previously, in March of 1915, France and Britain had also promised Constantinople to the Russians. In return, Russia agreed that it would recognize the independence of Arab states. Britain would control Haifa. France would get Syria. Russia would get Armenia and Kurdistan (oil was not yet a factor). What is amazing, is that not once were the inhabitants of these lands ever informed. How the governments could trade in lands that did not belong to them speaks to the tremendous power exercised by secret societies under the control of the Committee of 300. . .less by Freedom on June 20 2009, 14:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who is Israel This perpetual agreement, known as the Sykes-Picot Agreement, was concluded between Britain and France on May 9, 1916. All zones of influence in the Middle East were specifically spelled out, even where Arab states were ostensibly recognized as . .more "independent." The means of control here was through secret societies particularly through a planned Freemason Lodge in Salonika. Unaware of what had been arranged, M16 operative Col. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia") led the Arab forces of Sherif Hussein to one spectacular victory after another, eventually capturing the key Hijaz rail line, driving the Turks into full retreat The key element in persuading the Arabs to attack the Turks (both were Islamic nations) was the British statement that the Ottoman empire had befriended the Jews expelled from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, and had made Constantinople a haven for Jews. This, the British negotiators (MI6 agents) told Hussein, guaranteed that the rulers in Constantinople Affectionately known as "Orrenz" by his Arab soldiers, looked up to and idolized, it was impossible for Col. Lawrence to accept the gross betrayal of Hussein and his army. When it became apparent that Jews were being allowed into Palestine in large numbers, Lawrence was subsequently murdered to stop him from disclosing the machinations of the British . .less by Freedom on June 20 2009, 14:55 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who is Israel Once the Turks were defeated by Arab forces under Lawrence's command, and later the Arabs under Hussein, were defeated by the British-trained and equipped Abdul Aziz armies, the way was clear for Jewish immigration to Palestine to begin in earnest. . .more Arrangements were confirmed at a conference of allied prime ministers held at San Remo, Italy on April 18, 1920. No Arab delegates were invited. In May of 1921, serious anti-Jewish rioting broke out in Palestine over the sudden influx of Jewish immigrants and the large number of Jewish settlements springing up. Sir Herbert Samuel, British high commissioner for Palestine, at tempted to appoint a legislative council, but the Arabs would have no part of it Unrest continued from 1921, and a dispute at the Wailing Wall in 1929 erupted and rapidly escalated into large scale attacks on Jews, 50 of whom were killed. A British government report issued in March of 1931 cited the cause of the rioting as "Arab hatred of Jews, and the disappointment of the Arab hopes for independence." The British government then issued a decree restricting Jewish immigration, which led to a Jewish strike that caused wide disruption in Palestine. British foreign office documents indicate that in June of 1931, "complaints were filed with the League of Nations Commission on Mandates, which blamed the problems on an inadequate security force." Although the papers did not indicate who originated the complaints, notations in the margins of these papers point to Lord Rothschild. As a result of League of Nations pressure, the British government appointed Sir John Hope-Simpson to track and report on the unrest in Palestine. His report, known as The Passfield White Paper was presented to Parliament in 1930. The White Paper stressed the plight of the landless Arabs and their increasing desire to own land. It strongly advocated that Jews be forbidden to acquire more land if any Arabs were landless, and that Jewish immigration be stopped for as long as any Arabs were unemployed. The confidence of the Jews badly shaken, the World Zionist Congress went on the offensive and forced a debate in Parliament on the Passfield paper. The "London Times" in Nov. of 1930 said debates in Parliament were "heated and acrimonious." After two years of intense pressure on the British government, the Zionist World Federation was able to obtain a relaxation of restrictions on the number of Jews allowed into Palestine. . .less by Freedom on June 20 2009, 15:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ JVR Well your last post has told me all I need to know about you. I could try to explain that civilisation is more about moving towards unity in diversity, that segregating yourself will not result in harmony in society, but I guess you've heard all that . .more before, and yet here you are. I apologise, I had hoped we could reason together, but you are of a very specific school of thought. The silent cancer that eats at all progressive societies, your kind is present in all groups, from the extreme pan-Africanist who still habours dreams of driving other races into the sea, to the tribalist believing his is the superior tribe, to those like you dreaming of achieving "self-determination" and not ruling out what would essentially be a race-based civil war to achieve it. The rest of us will work hard everyday, trying to make this country work. I trully hope those of your ilk continue to be rejected by those of us who believe we can live together. . .less by KhulGaz on June 21 2009, 09:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Keep on believing KhulGaz ... No KhulGaz The issue is to let live (as in live and let live). What people like you are still promoting is the idea of Pax Brittanica (or Americana, if you prefer, as in Pax Romanica). The idea of Unity in English, and all other . .more cultures be tolerated and driven to extinction by assimilating their children into the next generation. Open your eyes - diverse societies have never succeeded in diversity, and in fact in history has only existed as part of a bigger Empire that enforces unity. Your mindset is still just that, an imposition of peace and unity, by the gun (and by courts these days), if necessary. In that you follow in a long and proud tradition - just ask Kitchener. If the Boers or San or whoever are driven to extinction as part of project, well, then this is just an offering the bigger Utopian goal. That is what this is always about, is it not, Pax Utopia where we will live in Unity, and where English Culture will have to do as a pragmatic choice. Diversity be damned!! People like you are as Utopian in outlook as Marx was, cut of two sides of the same cloth. By the way, you are wasting your energies trying to create unity in SA. The only possible unity is Unity in Misery. Utopia will remain as distant as ever, and life has always been about survival (also for languages and cultures). . .less by JVR on June 21 2009, 17:13 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Judges deserve justice too I pass no judgement to the guilt or otherwise of the judge. But I have a problem with those in JSC seeking to malign him and who act in innuendo because of their own personal ambitions. Let the Judge have a fair hearing, he deserves to be protected by the . .more same consitituion that protects the worst kind of criminals in our country. I remember when he was highly spoken of in the Cape Bar. His sin was writting a report on racism in the Cape Bar. For as long as racist whites try to shut the matter up the more we shall raise it. It will be in our own interest to deal with these issues in earnest and admit that more needs to be done to correct the injustices of the past so that we can all move on. Why is this difficult to understand? As for Tony he should know more than to quote and use language used by Israelites who are bent on pushing a devisive agenda. This language makes us suspecious and to an extent affirm our long held suspecision that this has racial pretext. . .less by Gambu on June 22 2009, 08:41 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

why are you running away from your responsibilities? And how do you think exclusive sociaties are preserved?, by the gun even today. There is no one being driven to extinction!!, maybe if you spent more time with your kids, speaking to them in Afrikaans at home, teaching them your history, but also . .more stressing the improtance of respecting other people's culture, you would not be so worried. Today thousands of black kids have white friends, yet I've never heard of those white kids speaking Zulu, or even not butchering the black kids vernacular name for that matter, but you will not hear us talking about the Zulu homeland because of this. Instead, everything starts at home, where the child learns their culture and our identity is preserved. You are right about one thing though, Isreal has provided a more defined target for it enemies, Hezbolah knows precisely where to point their missiles. I fear you might provide a much brighter target for your 'enemeis' with this move. Good luck... . .less by khulgaz on June 22 2009, 14:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

KhulGaz, go read the classics... KhulGaz Cultures are preserved not by parents, but by the existence of a cultural world (economy, if you will). The ANC has killed the Afrikaans world, and with it will go Afrikaans. At the end of "The Odyssey", Odisseus returns . .more to kill all his wife's suitors. In the movie this is a gripping scene of revenge. One of his victims asked him "Why?", meaning that they have acted lawfully by turning up to vie for her hand and his assets. His answer: "because you came to stole my world". Next time you preach so easily about existence, preservation and extinction, please recall this, and consider that the existence of an Italian world, Zulu world, Afrikaans world, is just as real as the supremacist English world in which you live. And for heaven's sake, read the Classics, it will give you a better understanding of human nature. . .less by JVR on June 22 2009, 16:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

No need for Tony Leon to say sorry I believe that Tony should stick to his voiced sentiments. The truth does not need a advocate. I will not be happy if judge Hlope gets the position of chief justice. This is a position that needs to be based on credentials such as those of the current . .more chief justice. The justice system will be under threat should Hlope be at the helm. He cannot even get to his own hearing and sends sick notes with flu, what if he has flu in during a court case where he must attend. . .less by Petal on July 10 2009, 13:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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