Israel: A reply to Steven Friedman

In a week when Netanyahu's government has decided to build more houses in a disputed section of Jerusalem, one can understand the exasperation of commentators like Steven Friedman (‘Talk Rights, not real estate', Sunday Times, 15 November, 2009).

But in his eagerness to advance his ideological agenda and to squeeze extra mileage out of the apartheid association, Friedman does not so much distort history as to ignore it altogether. Serious scholars talk of "two nationalisms" because that is indeed an important element in the Israel-Palestinian conflict; important but far from the only component.

Jewish nationalism was born and constructed in the nineteenth century out of despair at the failure of Jewish emancipation and burgeoning European antisemitism. It focussed on the historic land of Israel where Judaism was born and where it had maintained a continuous presence over the millennia.

Palestinian nationalism which arose in the inter-war years was an offshoot of an earlier and wider Arab nationalism. Although influenced by cultural diffusion from the West, it has recently become infused with powerful Islamist elements, represented in the rise of Hamas.

But Palestinian nationalism only became a significant factor when it appeared that the Jews had gained a foothold on a small stretch of the vast Arab territories dominated by Western powers in the early years of the twentieth century. In response, regional Palestinian loyalties were elevated to the ranks of a true nationalism to oppose Jewish settlement.

Even so this development was only taken seriously when Arab, not Palestinian, forces failed to dislodge the Jewish state in 1967 from the Middle East. Thus began the potent narrative of "occupation" and human rights taken up by the camp of which Friedman is a representative.

This is not to deny the lived reality in the minds and hearts of a few million Palestinians. They must be accommodated. Since the Oslo process began in the early 1990s, Israel has shown its willingness, albeit erratic, to work towards "two states for two peoples", a pragmatically vague compromise to enable the peoples of the region to get on with normal life - including, contrary to Friedman, economic development and autonomy for the Palestinians.

But this suits neither the extremists of the region nor Western ideologues, and in some cases antisemites, for whom the existence of a Jewish state is anathema. As the military option has failed so far, the diplomatic-economic strategy has come to hold out the best current hope for the elimination of the Jewish state.

Friedman, like Goldstone, is a soldier in the diplomatic-economic project as he admits when he openly advocates the "boycott, disinvestment and sanctions" strategy. That, in a nutshell, is why the Goldstone Report is widely regarded as political document rather than an impartial enquiry. Friedman only confirms what everyone knows, but that will not stop the Report becoming yet another stick to beat Israel with - as evidenced in a recent polemic by Costa Gazi in Politicsweb (24 Nov 2009).

But the crowning act of self-deception comes when Friedman and his supporters hold out the Utopian ideal of a binational state in which Jews will be contented, equal citizens of some democratic paradise. If Friedman knew anything about Jewish memory and self understanding - especially as it evolved in the last two hundred years - he would realize how problematic the notion of a single state is for Israeli Jews. There is a deep yearning for self realization. The same applies to Palestinians.

Put simply, Friedman has a profound misunderstanding of Jewish and Palestinian aspirations. Jews and Arabs/Palestinians have been in conflict for over a hundred years. Many Israeli Jews remember being expelled from Arab countries from the early 1940s. Many remember their families being butchered, just as many Palestinians remember friends being killed and others ending up as refugees in 1948. Two national narratives exist.

None of this seems to enter into Friedman's South African-centric worldview. When reflecting on his single state, he ought to consider the fundamental tenets of Islam, the concepts of the dhimmi and dar al-Islam and the absence of a democratic tradition among Palestinians and indeed the Arab world. In the twenty-first century, pluralism may look enticing from the vantage point of Johannesburg. In the Middle East or in Eastern and Central Europe it is far from evident. In the Arab world it is still an unrealised dream.

Unitary states in seriously divided societies (and who would deny that Israelis and Palestinians are not seriously divided) have failed in Lebanon and Yugoslavia, to name just two recent examples. For Jews, national identity was realised through the Zionist movement and achieved in 1948; for Palestinians, the PLO has carried the dream but the yearning remains unfulfilled. For Zionists, national expression was a renaissance - a ‘return to history' and an opportunity to be actors rather than subjects.

Forged in conflict and suffering, the Jewish national ideal is not something that will be sacrificed to dubious guarantees from the international community. In short, the Jewish state will reject any solution which smacks of self-genocide.

Certainly the ‘settlements' are a problem and the potential (not inevitable) balkanization of a Palestinian state would be messy. But this is precisely what needs to be negotiated. There is evidence of an economic revival in the West Bank and any advance towards compromise and reconciliation must go hand-in-hand with the promotion of economic prosperity and democratic norms.

The dream of a constitutional single state in Israel-Palestine, however pleasing in theory, simply ignores basic realities and visions. Put simply, the ‘negotiated revolution' in South Africa is precisely a lesson in differences. To continue to promote the unrealisable over practical measures to restore peace and human dignity to a conflict-ridden region, is to perpetuate the abuse of human rights which so concern Friedman and all those hoping for a better world.

Michael Berger is a retired Professor of Chemical Pathology and Professor Milton Shain is the Director of the Kaplan Centre for Jewish Studies at the University of Cape Town.

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Forged in conflict and suffering, the Jewish national ideal is not something that will be sacrificed to dubious guarantees from the international community. In short, the Jewish state will reject any solution which smacks of self-genocide."

 

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Aaah, I recall a time.... It is quite amazing.... I recall a time when people warned against simple-minded solutions in South Africa. However, the White Left condemned them as racist Neanderthals for that warning, and the simple-minded solution of ANC takes all in unitary . .more state with Leftists hegemony under ANC rule was held up as the ONLY solution viable. Thus the Frankenstein monster was born, and it still staggers on. Its creators, namely the Black Sash, and the Anglican Communion under Trevor Huddleston, and people such as Joe Slovo, Donal Woods, Helen Suzman, Alan Paton and whoever else are either all dead or have disappeared into the woodwork, while their monster is destroying other peoples' lives. As they say, the path to Utopia is strewn with good intention with unintended consequences. I could not care a hoot about the fate of Israel, but perhaps they will learn from our example as the Western Left (and its SAcan counterparts) have been looking for new target (they are done with SA, and have since moved on, unconcerned about the destruction they left in their wake) and is now in the process of arming itself to defeat that state.... . .less by JVR on November 24 2009, 17:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The difference between rights and aspirations! Wise men have said that perceived rights, comprising people's deepest need, i.e. security defined as freedom from fear, are not negotiable and cannot be compromised. When such rights are violated, the victims and previously impartial third parties join . .more forces against the perceived violators, with motivation that far exceeds the selfish "aspirations" of any unprovoked aggressor -- to the point of heroism and martyrdom. In other words, violators get worse than they bargain for. . .less by Siegfried Hannig on November 25 2009, 03:45 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Bloodshed or abuse of power: Which is the lesser evil? By prematurely surrendering to "majority rule" white South Africans spared their country the alternative of horrific bloodshed. That's why Heribert Adam suggested that Israelis and Palestinians should be "Seeking Mandela". But no Constitution . .more can withstand the outrageous abuses of power already witnessed in the unattainable "Rainbow Nation", and threatening it ever more menacingly. Would you believe that Mandela's successors publicly espouse Soviet totalitarianism (the ANC's blatantly undemocratic "national democratic revolution") in violation of constitutional democracy? Would you believe that the ANC's "Parliamentarians" are not democratically elected but despotically appointed by politicians who weren't elected either? Would you believe that anarchic "dog eats dog" lawlessness has looted the nation from the Cabinet down to almost every municipality -- with no prosecution to speak of (although lately promised, thank God, but can you believe them)? Let's not even mention race as a contributing factor. Just plain abuse of absolute power renders all else irrelevant! . .less by Siegfried Hannig on November 25 2009, 05:45 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Are you a Zionist mouthpiece Why doesn't Moneyweb publish the original article by Steven Friedman? Or even ask him and other non-Zionists to contribute once in a while. Do you assume that all of your reader support Israel and it's inhumane treatment of the Palestinians? Some of us . .more are black you know, and we do remember our recent humiliations and sufferings, the same things that the Palestinians are experiencing. . .less by David on November 25 2009, 08:10 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

friedman good article. but Steven has developed a grotesquely large ego over the years, so I doubt he reads the opinions of lesser mortals. by witbooi on November 25 2009, 08:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The SA experience...... is well-summarised above by Siegfried Hannig, and the Israelis are well-advised to take note of it. The Israelis should avoid the one-state solution at all costs! by mpho on November 25 2009, 09:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Israel-Palestine Profs Berger and Shain should know better than tout their "simple-minded" argument that conflict between Israeli and Palestinian nationalisms is inevitable and unfixable. Huntingdon's "clash of civilisations" thesis is thoroughly discredited. Israel is . .more the creation of the international community, which betrayed its "sacred trust" obligations to the Palestinians, but now has an obligation to remedy that betrayal. Zionism, which formed part of the colonialism/apartheid era, has passed its use-by date. The Israeli government has no interest in a peace agreement, whether of a one state or two state solution. Instead, in violation of international law, it is actively engaged in the wanton theft of Palestinian properties in East Jerusalem and the West Bank to expand Israel through illegal settlements. Given the looting of Jewish assets in Europe by the Nazis, Berger and Shain should be ashamed of their endorsement of such crimes. As a South African presently in Israel-Palestine, this is an apartheid state on a scale that far eclipses either "petty apartheid" or the "grand apartheid" madness of the bantustans. In smearing Goldstone -- a patron with Archbishop Tutu of the Cape Town Holocaust Centre -- as a "self hating Jew" is final confirmation that Berger and Shain "have lost the plot." . .less by Terry Crawford-Browne on November 25 2009, 09:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

International Law Please can someone explain to me in terms of International Law , the justification for a people ( not really sure who they are ) to return to a geographic area 2000 years later and claim to be it's rightful owners ????? I am not sure I . .more understand the "continual-occupation" theme either How can being a squatter on a piece of land equate to "continual-occupation" ??? Surely NO such claim exists -- even in Jewish law ???? . .less by Bibliophile on November 25 2009, 09:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

israel/palestine Can someone explain to me why there was no intifada by palestinians against Jordan ( west bank ) and Egypt ( gaza ) prior to 1967 when these territories were occupied by these countries. Where was a Palestinian state then ? Did not exist! The fact is . .more simple - the Arabs cant stomach a Jewish state in the M. E. Its OK to be occupied as long as it is by fellow Arabs. Ironic that one must listen to people with the name of Siegfried with regards to matters of security for Israel. Enough said on that one. . .less by henry on November 25 2009, 11:10 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Things do not have to be this way You are saying that we should not ask Jews to accept a unitary state because... they want their racially-based state and it is unrealistic to ask them to give it up? Not much of an argument. History is replete with instances of large-scale norm changes, . .more and what people will accept is not independent of what people around the world is saying. But ideas can only become feasible when engaged with, and there seems to be a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of a one-state solution - why is this? Moral voices around the world will not be silenced by a call to pragmatism, especially when such pragmatism amounts to letting guns and bulldozers settle the matter. It is precisely this kind of pragmatism that is the root cause of the conflict, and the reason why the peace process has stalled. Israel/Palestine needs more olive branches and less pragmatism. . .less by Mani on November 25 2009, 11:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Things do not have to be this way You are saying that we should not ask Jews to accept a unitary state because... they want their racially-based state and it is unrealistic to ask them to give it up? Not much of an argument. History is replete with instances of large-scale norm changes, . .more and what people will accept is not independent of what people around the world is saying. But ideas can only become feasible when engaged with, and there seems to be a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of a one-state solution - why is this? Moral voices around the world will not be silenced by a call to pragmatism, especially when such pragmatism amounts to letting guns and bulldozers settle the matter. It is precisely this kind of pragmatism that is the root cause of the conflict, and the reason why the peace process has stalled. Israel/Palestine needs more olive branches and less pragmatism. . .less by Mani on November 25 2009, 11:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

jews all the same Jews controll the american economy, hollywood, etc and if you speak the truth, i.e Goldstein Report, one is called Anti-semitic. by bob on November 25 2009, 11:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Bob Hey Bob, you sure your name isnt actually Billy Bob. Ooops, you dropped your white hood, LOL. by Funny on November 25 2009, 12:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

occupation is morally wrong despite your edifications profs Israels continued occupation and not allowing medicines and basic food is reprehensable, mostly funded by American Tax payers . by support for victims of Gaza on November 25 2009, 14:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Shain and Berger Shain and Berger should actually stick to their fields of expertise. It is so obvious that they are not well-read iin the history of the Middle East or Arab and Palestinian Nationational movements. by Amira on November 25 2009, 14:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Israel: A reply to Steven Friedman I challenge Steven Friedman to comment on the text books in Palestinian schools. If you teach your children in school that your neighbour does not exist as well as other hateful propaganda, why negotiate for a settlement if the only settlement in the . .more minds of the Palestinians is one country, which is Palestine ? Is there modus operandi then not the same as Iran who wants to wipe Israel off the map ? Two different approaces with the same goal. . .less by Willie Paterson on November 25 2009, 15:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Some brief responses to comments so far. David - I suppose if Friedman submitted his artilce to PoliticsWeb they would publish it. The Sunday Times refused to publish our response. Draw your own conclusions. Terry: Where did we call Goldstone a "self-hating Jew"? Most of your purported . .more "facts" are similarly conjured out of an over-active imagination. Mani - I personally would hope in time and with peace that Israelis and Palestinians together with other Arab states would find common cause in some kind of workable ME confederacy. But to advocate Armegeddon to satisfy your righteous indignation does not strike me as ethical. Demonisation and unrealistic demands strengthens extremists on both sides. Is this what you want? Bob - Get a grip on yourself. . .less by Mike Berger on November 25 2009, 15:27 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

wealthy lobby group in the Capitalist capitol of the world The American Israel lobby is among the most powerful of lobbyists in D.C. The idea of rights and freedoms is just a caveat to appease the conscience, always. The drive is always about keeping the wealth contained within certain layers of society, keeping . .more the class construct alive in South Africa, and in the United States the idea of a Jewish homeland is such a romantic myth and needs to be maintained. Palestine is as old as is the idea of Israel, both have equal right to the land, though the Palestinians never claimed that the land was given to them by Allah, the idea that this land, South Africa, was given to whites by the God of Israel didn't stand the whites in good stead when push came to shove, so why should it be that in Israel that idea trumps? . .less by Ekenj on November 25 2009, 16:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hey, you have it all wrong! There is nothing like Jew vs. Arab in todays modern society. What it is primarily all about, is domination for future oil reserves in the eastern Med. region. Secondary, it is a part of the world where the major powers can keep their war machines well . .more oiled as it is good for their economies! . .less by Compadre on November 25 2009, 16:54 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Ekenj Ekenj had one nugget amongst all the dirt that he wrote: the two sides both have a claim to the land. Most moderate Israelis and Palestinians accept this, and accept the need for a 2 state solution but extremists (such as Hamas) refuse to countenace this. . .more Surely the lesson from Yugoslavia has to be that in extreme cases like this, a separate state for each nation is the only practical way? . .less by Compromise the only way on November 25 2009, 17:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

israel/palestine Let me try again as nobody can answer my question. Have tried asking all sorts of pro palestine lobbiests and never a direct answer - only the normal occupation by zionists drivel. Why was there no uprising or intifafada against Egypt and Jordan . .more prior to 1967 when these two countries occupied the current Gaza and West Bank? Please somebody - answer me. Otherwise - I have to conclude that it is ok for the palestinians to be so called occupied as long as it is by there fellow Arabs. One state solution - NEVER. The Jews have learnt that only they themselves will look after their people - nobody else, least of all fellow semites that have a sole intention to wipe them off the face of the earth. . .less by henry on November 25 2009, 17:14 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The Hard Left is finding a new target... Ooh!! I see Terry Crawford-Browne came out swinging!! He writes above "[Israel-Palestine] is an apartheid state on a scale that far eclipses either "petty apartheid" or the "grand apartheid" madness of the bantustans." Phew. . .more As I note above -- the Western White Left (and its South African branch) undid South Africa. In 1994 they congratulated themselves for creating Utopia while they unleashed their Frankenstein monster to mow down the innocents. The FAR HARD LEFT are looking for new targets, and they will undo Israel by the imposition, as in South Africa, of simplistic [Far Left Wing and Therefore Holy]-Liberation Movement-Takes-All solutions. Israel is doomed. If only Helen Suzman could see the consequences of her (hard left) do-gooding-ness.... . .less by JVR on November 25 2009, 17:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

And Willie Paterson.... .... Anglos in South Africa have been arguing for ages that Afrikaans is a creole language and therefor Afrikaners cannot exist, or at least, is a mal-formed ethnicity. Hence the ease with which they impose the English solution, and the verve which which . .more their champions (Alan Paton, Helen Suzman, Joe Slovo) worked to strip Afrikaners of self-determinations. Now I come here to read that you say Palestinians are taught that Isrealis do not exist, and this upsets you. Do you think I should be upset about the approach followed by the ANC and their fellow-travellers towards my own? . .less by JVR on November 25 2009, 17:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The perfect jumping ground for this antisemite! As usual it is also a perfect ground to rewrite history instead of reading it. Where exactly you get that "..the international community ... betrayed its "sacred trust" obligations to the Palestinians". Have you read abut the Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate given to establish a . .more Jewish state? Whose "sacred trust" was betrayed by Albion? . .less by @ Terry the Antisemite on November 25 2009, 17:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

friedman Nothing so sickening as these left wing Jewish politically correct at all times commentators like the Friedmans of the world that sit in their ivory towers passing judgement on the mr. average of the world. No doubt - Friedman's popularity will be secured . .more by his oh so popular anti zionist schpiels. P******* little character he, Kasril, Ozinsky and their ilk. . .less by realist on November 25 2009, 18:59 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Israel-Palestine Mike: Last week I witnessed the demolition of houses in Beit Hanina and Al Isawiya in East Jerusalem, and for the past month I have witnessed the eviction by Israeli settlers of Palestinians from their homes in Sheik Jarrah. About 20 000 houses in East . .more Jerusalem are designated for demolition. I have also last week witnessed the situation in Hebron where 800 mainly foreign born settlers have evicted 13 500 Palestinians from their homes and where 1 500 businesses have been closed to provide a "buffer zone". The behaviour of these settlers is barbaric, and shames most Israelis. Hebron is a ghost town (pop 188 000) where Palestinians are prohibited even from walking down the main street. There are over 500 000 Israeli settlers now illegally living in East Jerusalem and the West Bank in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. These are not facts conjured out of an "over-active imagination. . .less by Terry Crawford-Browne on November 25 2009, 21:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The World of JVR In JVR we hear the whimper of failed Afrikaaner nationalism. Maybe JVR was a bit young at the time and can't really be blamed for his ignorance of pre-democracy South African history, or perhaps he is concerned about the 'apartheid' privileges . .more he has lost and wants his little voice to be heard. Its a real pity we have to hear such drivel from an apologist for the apartheid state when there is a more serious discussion underway. . .less by Tom on November 25 2009, 21:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

.... and in Tom we see.... ... the continuation of Colonialism. It is a real pity Tom, that English Males such as yourself have been reduced to the lowly act of picking off Isreali targets in the press, when at one point you ruled the waves. This loss of English vigour . .more has changed the Anglo Left into bullies, and they traverse the Earth looking for easy targets to beat into submission along Leftist Utopian Views. The Boers were an easy and long-standing target, but they have been done in. Now Israel is next. Beating up other repressive places (eg Saudi-Arabia, Syria, Cuba, Nigeria, Ivory-Coast, and a selection of African states) are either too difficult or are politically incorrect, as the oppression there is not done by white males. The overcompensation of the White Left on the issue of race makes it hard for these Enlightened do-gooding Leftists to act against these countries and peoples. As for the Apartheid State, I cannot ever recall apologizing for them. But the last refuge of a scoundrel will be race card. . .less by JVR on November 25 2009, 23:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

1967 @Henry "Why was there no uprising or intifafada against Egypt and Jordan . .more prior to 1967 when these two countries occupied the current Gaza and West Bank? Please somebody - answer me. Otherwise - I have to conclude that it is ok for the . .more palestinians to be so called occupied as long as it is by there fellow Arabs." Perhaps initially the Austrians welcomed the German occupation "Anschluss" We do tend to prefer our own. Unfortunately it appears that the Palestinians were denied their "disenchantment" by other events that happened in 1967. . .less by Bibliophile on November 26 2009, 09:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

bibliophile so then it is not a land issue by henry on November 26 2009, 11:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

JVR and the Land of Nod JVR - we live on the third rock from the Sun (called Earth by us). Where do you live? Does the moon shine during your dark time; is the sky blue? The discussion here is about contemporary events in Israel/Gaza/Palestine, and not about . .more historical events in South Africa. It's that simple! I am perfectly happy to engage you on South Africa, but at another time and at another place. . .less by Tom on November 26 2009, 11:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Terry Crawford-Browne Moral fervour is indeed an intoxicating drug but that does not entitle you to select, distort or invent facts. The numbers and facts you quote with such abandon are of the same reliability as your accusation that we called Goldstone a "self-hating Jew" - . .more an "error" which you have not had the good grace to retract. So here are some more facts. The economy of the West Bank is growing at the rate of 7% pa (some say more). Israel has removed about 2/3s of its checkpoints due to the better performance of the PA police and as a step towards normalisation after the Intifada. Israel is building almost 3000 new housing units in Arab quarters of East Jerusalem and upgrading municipal services. I could go on. I have no doubt there are real disagreements but the question is this: do you prefer selective moral rage or moving towards a decent life for all in that neighbourhood? Or do you simply want to get at the Jews? Let us know. . .less by Mike Berger on November 26 2009, 13:37 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Watch out for a reasonable Inquisitor!! Tom -- How do they say, watch out for a reasonable Inquisitor! He is by far the most expert at finding witches and burning them. Now did I tell you that I have a mole on my P****? To be more serious, historical events in SA are . .more connected with the current events in Israel not by accident, but by the same historical winds blowing after WWII. One seriously clever Englishman pointed this out, in Cape Town no less, as the "Winds of Change". In the wake of WWII many Englishmen and others took up the challenge to sow moral good. To Save the Earth. Like Inquisitors of old they trekked about the landscape, rooting out witches and bringing salvation. The Old South Africa offended their morality and the Boers were an old enemy (already victimized and attacked by Lord Somerset in the early 1800s as illegitimate in make-up and language). The rest, as they say, is history - overcompensation on the issue of race was not even necessary. Idi Amin, Mugabe, Ho Chi Minh, and other despots did not inflame the passions in the Western Left, as did the Boers. After 1994, a new suitable target for moral outrage is needed: Israel, the last remnant of the Colonial project. Close enough to Europe to trump overcompensation. I do not give a hoot about Israel, but the parallels are compelling - and TC-B says, worse than apartheid! . .less by JVR on November 26 2009, 17:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

JVR. I have never burnt a witch I didn't detest ;-) OK we are in basic agreement. What is practiced in Israel (that is Israel proper, the West Bank, and Gaza) is similar to the old South Africa. How do I know this? Well firstly I lived in South Africa through the 40's. 50's. 60's, and 70's - and then . .more (after democracy) in the 90's and part of the 00's. Also, Tu Tu and Mandela say that Israel's apartheid is not only similar but in fact is worse - and they of all people should know. The reason (I think) that the liberal mind found apartheid in South Africa so unsavoury is that is was being practiced by a race (the Boers) who most people liked to think belonged to the enlightened World. Israel is just the latest 'victim' - all because we would all like to think that they too belong to the enlightened World and should know better. That Mugabe, Amin, etc. do not get the same attention is precisely because they are not considered enlightened. That is however changing with people like Charles Taylor, Pol Pot operatives, Maloshovitz (sp?), etc. being brought to book. There is no excuse for barbaric behavior, never ever - even if your enemy is barbaric. What is required is for all propagators of human rights abuses (including wanton infrastructure demolition) being brought to book. And it is good that we start with the 'good guys'. Am I an Inquisitor - your call! . .less by Tom on November 26 2009, 19:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A final comment, Tom... Good Post Tom -- one final comment: If I could choose, I would rather be unenlightened and alive, than be enlightened and dead. If you do not believe me, then ask the survivors of torture in the many farm attacks. Far more Boers have . .more been killed per year since 1994, than Israelis in rocket attacks -- the difference is that the lifes of Israelis are of consequence, while the lifes (and language, and culture), of Afrikaners (even if you count us amongst the enlightened, are of no consequence (and has never been of consequence in the eyes of the White Western Left who held us to such high standard). If the price for enlightenment is having boiling water poured in your ears by a barbarian, as has happened and are happening in the Liberated South Africa, then count me out. . .less by JVR on November 26 2009, 20:37 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Farm attacks Tom. I agree that attacks on farmers are unacceptable. I am not anti-boer - just anti-racist. The irony of South Africa is that the apartheid system was started by the British - the boers just institutionalized it. The real irony of the farm . .more murders would appear to me to be the guaranteed availability of firearms on isolated farms. An easy target coupled with a big reward. That, unless there is a personal grudge, seems to be the primary motive. I can't help thinking, however, that personal grudges play a significant role (I know many South African farmers). My ex-wife (bless her heart) is a boer and is known to have said regarding farm murders "I feel really sorry for the farmers that don't deserve it"! I don't think I would go that far but the concept of human relations seems to have by-passed many South African farmers. . .less by Tom on November 26 2009, 22:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Read more, Tom! Tom, No-one deserves it (being murdered). [As an aside, I am sure you are against the death penalty for almost any deed -- well, except for Boers, then the death penalty can be imposed without due process, even]. And you are completely . .more wrong about the motive for farm murders. (Hint: The attackers ALWAYS bring weapons with them). It is an overcompensating cop-out to argue that weapons are the motive (when military grade weapons can be obtained elsewhere almost at will). Normally, I assume that the Left prides itself on dispassionate analysis. (The result of your analysis is that farmers must be disarmed, which will make them even easier targets. But as I said above, in your world the lives of farmers (the white kind) are of no consequence - they are a blot on a continent that must be black. You should read Jane Goodall and Dianne Fossey, when you take some time out. People all too often divorce the animal from the human. You will find your motives there, and you will also note that while your kind are Alpha, that you will define your terms in relation to that fact and impose it on Betas (in fact, as Alpha you decide who lives and who dies). When Alphas are pushed off the top of the heap (as they inevitable will be), they will discover what the rest of us already know. This will happen in England too. . .less by JVR on November 27 2009, 00:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Israel-Palestine Mike: The EU is pouring funds into the PA which is nothing less than a "toy telephone." It has produced a skewed economy with massive corruption, but a 7% growth rate has not reduced unemployment or poverty. The per capita income in Palestine of US$1 . .more 000 compares with US$20 000 in Israel, dependent upon billions poured in by the US. Very far from being motivated by moral fervour, my criticisms are based on reality and high-level briefings by Israelis, Palestinians and internationals. Three days weekly, my colleagues and I monitor Qalandiya checkpoint from 5am until 8am. The purpose of these checkpoints is to humiliate and economically impoverish the Palestinians. The checkpoints contribute virtually nothing to security in Israel, but confirm the apartheid reality in Palestine. Checkpoints, blue and green IDs far eclipse the perversity of the apartheid-era dompass. I spend my early mornings at these checkpoints: have you? Israel is not building houses for Palestinians in East Jerusalem. Instead, in violation of international law it actively demolishes existing houses and illegally installs Israel settlers. Mike, stop trying to deny that the zionist lobby has smeared Judge Goldstone as a "self-hating Jew." Zionism in Israel, like apartheid in South Africa, is unsustainable. Move on... . .less by Terry Crawford-Browne on November 27 2009, 08:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

You have me completely wrong JVR I agree with you. No-one, including farmers, deserves to be murdered (I used the word "unacceptable" in my last mail, perhaps you missed it). I am definitely NOT against boers or farmers - white or black. I am also against the death penalty because it is . .more demonstrably not a deterrent and I don't believe in killing anybody just because I don't like them. But I think we should debate that elsewhere. If I am wrong about firearms being the motive for farm murders (and I am perfectly willing to accept your correction), what then motive is the motive for the murders? It cannot be for the theft of the farm, or the theft of bakkies (LDV's), BMW's or Mercedes Benz's - these can be easily acquired elsewhere. Is it possible then that the murders are committed for personal grudge? Should the farmers be disarmed? In the context of South Africa - I think not. I have however lived in countries where NOBODY except the military and police are armed, and it works very well. JVR, you seem to be having a hissy fit and are discussing this emotionally and illogically, and your point about Alpha and Beta psychological profiles is unclear. I am perfectly happy to debate these issues with you (although we are boring everyone else - the actual discussion is about Israel and Palestine) if you are prepared to cut the emotion. . .less by Tom on November 27 2009, 21:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Terry Crawford-Browne I'm taking the trouble to respond because you and your tactics need to be exposed. In your first letter you accuse Shain and myself of calling Goldstone a "self-hating Jew". This was false and I challenged you to substantiate it. I also said that since . .more you lied once why should we believe anything you say. You ignored this in your next letter and simply threw out a new set of accusations. Once again I drew your attention to the fact that you had not withdrawn your clearly false accusation and once again I questioned the reliability of your purported "facts". In this letter you come up with a new twist. To use your words: "Mike stop trying to deny that the zionist lobby has smeared Judge Goldstone as a "self-hating Jew." I have never denied it since it simply never came up in our original letter or in our correspondence. So, once again you are lying by implication and innuendo. It's clear that you don't mind lying because you hate the Zionists. To make it simple - you may also dislike Jews but that does not mean it's OK to accuse them of killing Christian children for Passover. You are a propagandist of the worst kind; Goebbels would be proud of you. . .less by Mike Berger on November 28 2009, 20:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Beyond Terry... Besides his repeated false accusations directed at Shain and myself regarding Goldstone, Terry throws out "facts" which we are invited to believe. One of them is that Israel is trying to impoverish and humiliate the Palestinians in support of which he . .more lets fly with a host of "facts" - which I submit are similar in nature to those used by McCarthy to hound "communists" in the USA. Here are counterfacts from the Globe and Mail in Canada: "Driving through the towns of the West Bank, one can see and feel the difference. The cities of Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah and Hebron all display new-found vitality. Jenin has become a shopping destination for Israeli Arabs. Nablus' historic market is packed with Palestinians from all over the West Bank. Ramallah and Hebron are bustling cities where people enjoy normal lives. The reason is the withdrawal of Israeli soldiers in recent months and the elimination of many of the checkpoints between Palestinian communities." Does all this imply everything is perfect? Not necessarily, but it is a far cry from the picture created by Crawford-Browne. . .less by Mike Berger on November 28 2009, 21:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Terry Crawford-Browne and his addiction ..... How many know that Crawford-Browne, born in Ireland and grew up in Libya. Currently with the World Council of Churches (WCC) group in the West Bank who are well known for their anti-Israel rhetoric and agenda. Whilst he writes that he meets with Israelis, . .more it should be known that these Israelis are only from the left and fit into his political passion. His exposure to the other Israel;i side is probably minimal or non est. Crawford-Browne should be given credit for what he did to add to the exposure of South Africa's arms scandal, which is still being covered up. However, huge exposure to media does have an addictive side and I suspect that Israel may be his newest cause. His background and friendship with Archbishop Tutu and through him the WCC, certainly sets him up for his next "cause". Prof. Berger, well done for taking Crawford-Browne on and showing the courage to face him and his nefarious and spurious agenda head on. . .less by Lawrence Shipton-Jones on November 29 2009, 14:31 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Tom , the latest apologist... ... for the killings of white farmers in SA is no-one else than our former president. This is why our exchange is relevant in the context of TCB's letter and the response above by Berger and Shain. There are (and this is unique to Westerners) a . .more grouping of Hard Leftists who have made it their cause to Save the World. These people (almost all of them whites) have identified over the decades a number of causes: anti-communism, South Africa, Israel, etc, in which they have inserted themselves, in order to "save" peoples from themselves. They are no different from medieval Inquisitors in the bluntness of their approaches and proposed solutions - they seek out witches and dehumanize them -- (In this context, do you know that more white farmers are killed in the liberated South Africa, each year, since 1994, than Isrealis in every one of those years? Does it matter that these people have been tortured to death with hammers, boiling water, had their fingers severed? -- While the Inquisitors are celebrating their victory over witches?) These people are really like Crusaders who have identified Jerusalem (or previously Johannesburg for that matter) as their cause. They are and have swiped aside more reasonable approaches and always seek to strengthen the most extreme elements involved, causing chaos and violence. . .less by JVR on November 30 2009, 18:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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