On race and crime: A reply

JOHANNESBURG - When an issue becomes tied up with nationalist sentiment it becomes almost impossible to debate it rationally. In this case a person's opinions are determined not by the facts of the matter, but by which side they identify with. Such seems to be the case in any debate on race and crime in South Africa.

To paraphrase George Orwell, the question of whether black or white South Africans are disproportionally affected by crime (and why this is so) is one that, in theory, it should be possible to give a reasoned and possibly definitive answer to.

In reality, it is very difficult to have a constructive discussion about the matter. The question is seen by certain participants as one of what Orwell called "competitive prestige" or, in this case, victimhood.

On the one side there are those, who regard it as a matter of faith that poor black South Africans must be the primary victims of crime and proceed from there. On the other, any article suggesting as much seems to attract a particularly moronic and (white) racist kind of response in the comments section.

In a recent paper Gavin Silber and Nathan Geffen take issue with my article pointing out that, contrary to the claims of the 142 academics and others, crime victimization surveys have, over the past decade, found that more white and Indian respondents report having fallen victim to crime than other groups.

The two authors state that "the view that whites are being disproportionately victimised needs to be debunked. Whites are not the primary victims of South Africa's social ills, and propagating the view that they are encourages ungenerous politics that refuses to acknowledge the responsibility whites have to address past wrongs."

This statement reflects the basic problem with the article, for it seems to reflect the starting, not the end point, of their researches. In an effort to achieve a predetermined outcome the author's tend - no doubt unconsciously and in completely good faith - to subtly distort both my argument and the evidence they think they have found to contradict it.

At the outset Silber and Geffen try to buttress their position by insinuating that, contrary to the actual phrasing of their letter, the 142 were actually referring to "serious and violent crime" (not crime in general). Having inserted this distinction, long after the fact, Silber and Geffen admonish me for failing to sufficiently distinguish (in my response) between different types and degrees of crime.

To begin with then, the authors read into the academics letter a claim they did not make, and read out of my response distinctions I did in fact touch upon (albeit mainly through quoting another author).

Silber and Geffen then use a shot gun approach to question the general validity of victims of crime surveys. These simply amount to a list of speculative suggestions, hurriedly put together, as to why these surveys should be treated with suspicion. One quotation from Michael O'Donovan that they employ in support of their case is taken egregiously out of context.

Further, the authors provide no response to O'Donovan's point that the finding that victimisation survey findings that wealthier communities and individuals are more likely to be the victims of crime are corroborated by "SAPS statistics on serious offences."

The point I made in my original article was that, for the moment, these victims of crime surveys are the most scientific evidence we have on the topic. If Geffen and Silber want to debunk their findings it is incumbent on them to come up with better data. But do they?

In their efforts to disprove the survey findings the authors focus almost wholly on a narrow category of violent crime - namely homicides.

The authors begin with StatSA's data on unnatural deaths for the period from 1997 to 2001. As Silber and Geffen note this shows no disproportion in the likelihood of a member each racial group succumbing to death through unspecified unnatural causes, although (young) black and coloured men were, it appears, more likely to die from assault than the other groups.

Silber and Geffen concede that in just under half of the cases the race of those who died during that period are unknown. Given such holes in the data it is difficult to see what weight can really be put on its findings one way or another.

There is much better data available from 2007 and this confirms that whites are more-or-less as likely as black South Africans to die of external causes of one kind or another. In the 78% of cases where racial data is available the breakdown is the following:

The authors claim that further "compelling data" is provided by a Medical Research Council (MRC) "investigation into female homicide rates in South Africa in 2004" which "used national mortuary data to determine that 2,8 of every 100 000 white women die as a result of murder, whereas 8,9 Africans and 18,3 coloureds meet the same fate. This shows, that at least for women, Myburgh is very likely wrong and the academics are right. Black women are disproportionately murdered."

How could the 142 academics be "right" about a claim they never made, and I "wrong" about something I never disputed? In any event Silber and Geffen misrepresent these findings. The report they reference makes clear that the figures they cite refer solely to rates of "intimate femicide" - i.e. cases where a woman is killed by her intimate partner - not to all female homicides. The full figures are as follows:

For murders of females by others the racial differences are much narrower, as can be seen in the table below. It is important to note though that in the 905 cases analysed the perpetrator was unknown in 182 of them.

As can be seen from these two tables these estimates suggest that black (African) women are not "disproportionately murdered" though Coloured women may be.

Silber and Geffen then cite a Centre for The Study of Violence and Reconciliation (CSVR) study of a number of high risk areas in South Africa. This apparently found that "85 per cent of homicide victims were black, nine per cent were coloured, five per cent Asian and one per cent of victims were white."

Again, this is undigested and misleading. It fails to make clear that the sample was representative not of the national population (as a careless reader may assume) but of the population of the particular areas analysed, and explain what that was. Moreover, the figures it refers to were not the percentage of homicide victims, but rather the racial profile of the population of that area. The complete and correct figures follow in the table below:

Finally, the authors cite murder and rape statistics from Cape Town as a "case study." Given the political and demographic exceptionalism of that city is difficult to see why they do so other than that this very uniqueness supports the pre-ordained conclusion they are straining to reach.

But here again the authors fail to process the data properly. They make much of the fact that, according to police statistics, "five police districts account for over 44 per cent of murders - Nyanga (13,18 per cent), Harare Khayelitsha (8,67 per cent), Khayelitsha (8,47 per cent), Gugulethu (7,58 per cent), and Delft/Belhar (6,1 per cent)." But they fail to take us into their confidence by telling us what proportion of the population of Cape Town actually lives in these particular areas.

Finally, the authors do cite a source which indicates a considerably higher homicide rates in poor black and coloured areas than in the wealthier and whiter suburbs of the city.

After all this, the authors claim that this all somehow nullifies the more general findings of the victims of crime surveys and "indicates that the burden of serious crime is disproportionately absorbed by black and poor South Africans." It is difficult to see a rational connection between the evidence they have produced and this claim.

As noted earlier there are problems both with the data they cite and the way they have presented it. The selection of data is problematic as well - given that they have cherry picked a crime category and regions which tend to support their claims. Khayelitsha and the Joburg CBD, for example, are undoubtedly some of the most dangerous areas of the country. But the deep rural areas are often some of the safest. Limpopo is the province with by far the lowest murder rate.

Assuming that the evidence they have cited does in fact show, as is very possibly the case, that the murder rate nationally is in reality higher among black and Coloured South Africans all they have shown is ... that the murder rate is higher among these two racial groups. They have neither proved their own claim (about "serious crime") nor that of the 142 academics (about crime in general.)

There is a danger too in simply assuming that general murder rates reflect a more general burden of victimhood at the hands of our bandit class. Firstly, as the MRC findings indicate, many killings (and assaults) are carried out by intimates or acquaintances often in moments of drunken rage. Such so-called "social fabric crimes" are not really relevant in determining whether individuals from vulnerable minorities are seen as legitimate or soft targets by predatory criminals.

Secondly, those who live by the sword are likely to die by the sword. Violent offenders are very likely to themselves to be affected by violence and to die violent deaths. A 2004 American study noted that "the extant literature has established that delinquents and victims are often one and the same...Gang members who engage in violent offending experience higher levels of violent victimization than all other youths, even nongang youths who engage in violence." High homicide rates in gang ridden areas may thus partly be a product of inter-gang violence.

Thirdly, as O'Donovan cautions, death rates from violent crime are partly determined by the quality of emergency services and hospital care the victim has access to. He states, "The derived murder rates for an area may thus rest less on the inclination of a community to violence than on the quality of services in that area. The murder stats should thus be used with greater caution than is usual."

Finally, the authors suggest - while twisting what I actually wrote - that it is "far-fetched" to raise the possibility that the anti-white sentiments of the top ANC leadership in the 1990s could have given the green light to cross-racial crime. This is obviously a hypothesis that needs to be tested. But I fail to see why it is inherently implausible. Would Silber and Geffen also claim that Thabo Mbeki's equally "obscure" statements on AIDS and anti-retrovirals had no effect on people's behaviour on the ground or on the conduct of ANC apparatchiks in state and society?

ENDNOTE:

[i] Naeemah Abrahams (et al), "Mortality of Women From Intimate Partner Violence in South Africa: A National Epidemiological Study", Violence and Victims, Volume 24, Number 4, 2009

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Crime : Sliber Blah, blah, blah! Talking about two (black crime) apologists who were trying to disprove a fact: Whites, living in an apartheid type of world, do not have much violent crime. What there is, is usually dealt with sharply by the police and the courts. . .more Blacks on the other hand, are generally NOT law abiding, at least not "white" concepts of law such as respect for other people's property and the sanctity of life. Fact two: Violent crime is much more noticable in "white" areas, because it is so unexpected. Anybody disputing these two facts, is talking against his / her own knowledge of the truth. . .less by CA Bez on January 17 2010, 23:43 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

National Democratic Revolution I demand racial representivity in crime, as such blacks should suffer 90% of all crimes. by The Joker on January 18 2010, 02:07 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

anti-white sentiments of the top ANC leadership 2009/10 1999 is irrelevant ! There is silent white genocide NOW. 2009 Zuma, Malema, Vets - rhetoric ! The cruelty is excessive ! by old, female on January 18 2010, 06:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Preconceived notions It is intuitive that people perceived to have money and living vulnerably on farms and small holdings will be the victims of crime. People in Johannesburg,in terror of crime, are paying billions of rand for several layers of security. To a Johannesburg . .more resident Cape Town southern suburbs are a paradise. The 142 academics come in the main from CT. . .less by Amanda on January 18 2010, 06:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Racialism in the crime I once again state that black on white crime is driven 1st by hate for the white and then greed. I know that Muslim woman have escaped rape where white ... irrespective if they 90 or 2 have not. The disease called poverty is the catalyst to . .more all this. . .less by Five on January 18 2010, 07:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Thanks for that But I dont need any statistics to convince me. Almost every one of my white friends, neighbours and family members have been victems of violent crime at the hands of black house robbers, some have been killed. It will happen to you and you and you - . .more eventually. . .less by lad on January 18 2010, 07:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

White screams Why blame the ANC alone? Have you noticed that not only the ANC, but the IFP and the PAC have never made 'Crime' an issue during election time. Only whites complain about it becauase they know its payback time. by Piet Pompies on January 18 2010, 07:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Once again the real question goes unanswered The real question is this: how many blacks and coloureds are attacking, murdering and raping whites, vs the number of whites attacking blacks? The real problem is that the overwhelming majority of intraracial crime is one-way traffic. Little old white . .more ladies don't kill young black men. Young black men however, due to whatever reason (lack of civilization, high testosterone, low intelligence) are overwhelmingly likely to be the culprits in attacks across the colour line. . .less by Afrikaner on January 18 2010, 08:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

racially profiling the victims is interesting.... ....but let's profile the perpetrators too by charlie on January 18 2010, 08:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Who are the perpetrators I would like to see the stats on what % of the crimes are committed against which race group by another race group. E.g. what % is committed by blacks broken down into whites, coloureds & Indians. And what % is committed by whites against blacks, . .more coloureds & Indians etc. I suspect an interesting trend might emerge. . .less by Mark on January 18 2010, 08:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

If only... If only the people commenting at the bottom of articles would put as much thought into their comments as the authors do into their articles. by think on January 18 2010, 08:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Facts are... Facts are my family was held at gun point in our homes by 3 black youths, with guns. They were racially abusive during the incident, and physically violent. Who cares what this blurb is on about. In my mind I am under attack because I am white, and I need . .more to get out of here . .less by DJA on January 18 2010, 08:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I have no doubt that the blacks are targetting the whites They are able to kill on the off chance you have a cell phone. They kill the farmers too. This is the behaviour of people who are terribly angry or are uncivilised or both. You decide which. Look how they are behaving in Haiti. They are using the disaster . .more there to murder, rob and pillage and that, you must agree, is the behaviour of savage people. I am gloomy about black behaviour because world wide they generally seem to cause problems and do not seem to add to the quality of life for anyone anywhere. Just a drain on resources and then on top of this you get murder rape and robbery. On top of all these probelms they seem intent, generally speaking, on breeding like men possessed. This makes even more problems. Not all of them are like this but I wish none of them were like this. . .less by Agree on January 18 2010, 08:57 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Race and crime -the real test! Implementation by ANC leadership and the government to remove Racism in the crime situation is not coming forward - policies are put in place - empty promises abound around election time but nothing happens on the ground. Talk is cheap!! by Ben du Koker on January 18 2010, 09:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Crime Come on people! You have a country that is 85% black (native african, excluding Indians and Coloureds). Of that population, 60% are desperately poor. On the flip side, 15% that comprise the rest of the population hold the real wealth in this country. . .more Guess who has more propensity to commit crime? You are all stating the obvious (albeit, with racial slander). Unfortunately, things are not going to get better because the Govt is inept and corrupt. It pains me as a black South african to say this, but I'm having serious thoughts about leaving this country. Problem with that is that you won't find your ideal place to live. So pick carefully for lesser of all other evils... . .less by Voltron on January 18 2010, 10:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

And clever, clever the ANC abolished the death penalty just in time...... because they knew this muder and mayhem perpetuated by black on white was coming. A re-run of the K wars in the ECape in the 1800's now applied to all of SA especially the farmers. And the sh*t that spews from the ANC in the name of a better life for all. . .more The ANC, it's cadres and it's followers remain terrorists now terrorising a nation. Savage behavior and there is no deterrent. The savages must know that if you murder and rape you are going to die. No ifs and buts. And they talk aboult morality and a rainbow Nation. And not a peep from Mandela. Hippocrites. . .less by Piet on January 18 2010, 10:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@CA Bez No, anyone disputing those "facts" is simply talking against your notion of the truth (aka your opinion). by CTheB on January 18 2010, 10:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Voltron Well said. That is the truth of it. Low education/poverty correlate directly to crime! Thye most important point made = government ios f@cking it up! Vote with your feet black citizens and vote for change! by nic on January 18 2010, 10:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Crime Europeans general in SA, except for a few, tend to forget that they were and are still spoilt bunch and fooled by their thieving forefathers when they were protected at the expense of others in a foreign country for so long. Now that they are called upon . .more to grow these twits are screaming and kicking a fuss when they are shown what real life is on earth not their small dream land that they were taught. Wake up twits, its over. Finally you will have to grow up and be human for once and be with humans and stop the moaning. SA needs a european real laeder to help the euros to grow up and relearn the real life about the real issues not the dream life you were fed all these years.Period. Wellcome to real life and to Africccccaaaa !!!!! . .less by Tried of euro moaners in SA on January 18 2010, 10:43 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Agree Please do a 2-minute internet search on the history of Haiti before you start mouthing off with your racist drivel. Haitians are violent and desperate because Haiti is a failed state, and has been that way since the 1860s thanks to insane punitive . .more reparations demanded by colonial France. In short, the African slaves on Haiti rebelled, beat a French army on Haiti, and were given their freedom from France - on condition that they paid about 150-million francs in gold to France. By the 1860s this amount was "mercifully" lowered to about 50-million, but already by then Haiti was on its knees. The only savages in that story were French. Next time you're in Paris, see if you can smell the blood that paid for all that beauty and white European glamour. . .less by Historian on January 18 2010, 10:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The real criminals 1 For good leftist ideologues to take their salaies is, as their paper demonstrates the most criminal act of all. Perhaps the most significant statistic quoted in table 1 above is not the "unnatural deaths" but the natural deaths. The disproportionate . .more number of blacks dying from natural causes is far more significant and links to reports of black life expectancy *decreasing* under the ANC "better life for all" regime. Surely this is more important than the roughly 10% of unnatural deaths. But tying this to the charges of genocide that have been levelled against the ANC for its neglect of retrovirals. A rough calculation is that these 300- 400,000 deaths over the period of ANC rule equates to roughly the 3k deaths of blacks cited. Odd that two AIDS crusaders should miss that. Or is it? I suppose "natural causes" includes AIDS, cholera, malnutrition, alcohol-, cigarette-, drug-induced and other *preventable* diseases (including occupational diseases) but excludes 18-year-olds dying from dicing in cars. One feels like the Peter Sellers character - Walter Mitty type advocate who dreams he wins an acquittal by arguing that his client' s victim died of "natural cause" because "nothing is more natural than dying after being shot in the head". . .less by Theseus on January 18 2010, 11:10 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Agree and Piet Totally agree with you and at Historian, remember Haiti voted not to be ruled by France and 'suffer' the benefits they would have enjoyed but when the sh**t hits the fan they quickly shout HELP by JvR on January 18 2010, 11:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Blaming our crime problems on poverty.... ..is just convenient. In a society where by far the vast majority are living in abject poverty, anyone would expect high crime rates and it is tantamount to an additional tax. What is totally unacceptable in a civilized society is the degree of wanton, . .more senseless violence that accompanies crime in this place. And rape? Of grandmothers and children??? Explain that away with poverty. It is pure barbarism. . .less by Nick on January 18 2010, 11:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

crime the will always be crime in this world no matter what, so deal with it... stop this nosenses of who is the better government, there are many crimes committed by white people on black people that where never reported, do you think black people hate white . .more people just for the fun of it...? . .less by whatever on January 18 2010, 11:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Tried You need a dictionary. Period. I would also suggest a brain but that is unlikely to happen. by Freddie on January 18 2010, 11:32 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Historian Blaming the colonialists again. Haiti is like South Africa and the rest of the african country's that were colonised - if it was not for the "evil" whites there would not have been any roads, buildings, hospitals, schools, etc etc. Just trees with men . .more sitting beneath them drinking some form of home brewed alchohol!! . .less by Kevin on January 18 2010, 11:41 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Historian Haitians had to pay punitive reparations to France in 1860. I fail to see how the current state of that failed nation can still be blamed on that. Germany paid reparations to France and the UK after WWI, and than had to be completely rebuilt after WWII, . .more ditto with Japan. Yet they managed to become economic powerhouses within decades of these events (the Marshall plan did not do that). That is the difference between nations that get on with rebuilding and those who sit and harp on about past injustices and playing the blame game... (colonialism, apartheid etc). The question is what type of nation are we? I fear too many in senior govt positions fall into the latter category. . .less by Freddie on January 18 2010, 11:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The real criminals 2 Geffen & Nathan' Goebbelsstuk of sophistry & obfuscation is a triumph of Rorsarch over research, misinterpreting of evidence & faulty logic equal to the NPA's dropping Zuma's charges or the paroling of his accomplice. Our heroes ignore that crime . .more is committed by perpetrators not by victims. Whites & blacks do go around asking the nearest baddie to commit crimes against them (Kebble excepted & despite the claims of many rapists). Why then focus on the victims in order to prevent crime & to "create safer communities" I am unsure what these twisted minds mean by "alleviating crime", but judging by the next sentence dealing with crime "response" guess they include prevention. Again, why focus on the race of the victim; this is different from identifying the location of crime hot-spots, vulnerable times & circumstances, as SAPS are trying to do. These twisted souls give it away when they link criminal activity to the "responsibility whites have to address past wrongs". While conceding that, judging by the quality of their writing, these flakes do not deserve their jobs (or to be in print), they simply cannot extrapolate their guilt for their own lack of merit & benefitting from priviledge & connections to justifv crime. Their "populist rhetoric & unsubstantiated claims"-based argument is, I agree, "dangerous & irresponsible. . .less by Theseus on January 18 2010, 11:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Social equality is the wrong way to look at this For a strong society, the contributors have to be protected as a priority of government. Whether or not there is crime elsewhere is of secondary import, because if the contributors are killed then the society has no more resources for any kind of . .more government programs. Governments have to protect the golden goose first, because this is the source of all growth in a country. If there are any resources leftover, that the government wishes to invest in goodwill rather than capital, then they can protect the non contributors. . .less by Radek Tanski on January 18 2010, 11:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Seriously? JvR, let me put this in terms you can understand. I'll also try to use very small words. I assume you're an Afrikaner, what with the whole JvR name. OK. Let's pretend the British enslaved the Afrikaners in 1700. Not annexed. Not a system where . .more they let the Boers have their little play-play Republics. I mean enslaved: chains, barracks, beatings, summary executions. Little Jannie and Sannie off to the quarry as soon as they turn 7. Vroutjie raped whenever Boss wants, and if you protest you get whipped. Now let's say in 1900 you all got gatvol, got some weapons from an enemy of England, and waged a successful guerrilla war that forced England to give you your own homeland up beyond the boerwors curtain. Oh, except that no international finance institutions will work with your new country unless you pay England reparations of five billion pounds. So you're saying that first thing you and your new Presidentjie would have done is ask England to be re-colonized? Wow. You're one confused cracker. . .less by @ JvR on January 18 2010, 12:07 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

stats quick look on the web. India 32 318 murders, total no op people 1.13Billion. SA 21553 , out of 48m , Australia 255 out of 20.3 Million. It's clear that First world countries the chances are much much less to de murdered. 3rd world very high. Also India is . .more also very poor, like sa, but their murder rate is 4 times less than ours. India is highest on the murder list with 32318 murders, we are in forth place 21563. Clearly something is horribly wrong in SA, more than any other africa state. Poor not the biggest reason to behave like animals. . .less by badprop on January 18 2010, 12:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The real issue is Not whom they are killing but who are the killers. An interesting article I came across the other day http://www.rense.com/general89/huge.htm by Lord max master of infinity on January 18 2010, 12:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

National Democratic Revolution..... by THE JOKER Dear Joker, your posting "demand(s) racial representivity in crime, as such blacks should suffer 90% of all crimes". I think the raw stats from any of the academics(?) viewpoints are not at odds with the basics of your posting "demands". . .more So, it makes me wonder if you actually understand all the nuances and real issues & angles of debate here? If others think of your posting as I am inclined to do, then the point you are trying to make gets lost (even if it had any validity in the first place). Good luck in your future postings, The chikurubi kid :) . .less by John Austin, London on January 18 2010, 13:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

What a dreadfully poor article.... This article is drivel, an incoherent rambling on about 'facts' from questionable and misunderstood studies. I gave up reading half way through. Please no more of this rubbish. If Monayweb coinsiders this a quality article, then we are in trouble.. Sies. by Old Nick on January 18 2010, 13:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

politics not statistics None of the statistics are actually relevant to the argument for asylum: 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees asylum-seekers must show that they have a well-founded fear of persecution due to their race, religion, . .more nationality, political opinion or membership of a particular social group, and are unable or unwilling to seek protection from the authorities in their own country. The definition is forward-looking, so even if an asylum-seeker has suffered terrible harm in the past, they will not get asylum if there is no risk of anything happening to them in the future. Can PW identify policies that prove persecution due to colour? Government statements that indicate a well founded fear? Was not that the basis? You can also claim on Human Rights issues, how does AA impact on that? Surely PW must focus on the politics and not the statistics. . .less by math101 on January 18 2010, 13:30 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

On the issue of crime stats... or rather the lack thereof It matters not what this study or that study reveals. What does matter is that those who have been entrusted with the duty of monitoring, assessing and developing effective responses to counter crime have failed us all miserably. As long as . .more the ANC government refuse to keep and report honest and accurate statistics about crime in SA, we will never get a complete and accurate assesment of crime in SA. Those who thirve on crime are 'protected' because the police can never develop relevant and targeted responses to crime trends as they are forced to work in the dark. Also unscruppulous security service providers, use the dirth of crime stats to magnify perceptions about crime and justify inflated costs for private protection against crime. But most important, in the absence of facts, peoples perceptions become far more relevant (even though they might be faulty), and as we aproach the 2010 WCS later this year, the effect of news and rumour has become very powerful indeed and programmes like e-News crime expose and reports in the international press about actresses being shot at in Cape Town, carry far more currency than articles like the above halfwit babble about questionable statistics. . .less by Old Nick on January 18 2010, 13:31 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

politics not statistics 2 The statistics given do not show voting tendency of the assaulted. The fact they are split along colour and poverty could be the wrong slice to take. Perhaps this is showing that that the DA supporters are being persecuted? Perhaps the ANC are being . .more hunted down? The statistics are meaningless, and as per previous post irrelevant. Focus on the politics please. . .less by math101 on January 18 2010, 13:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ seriously Its idiots like you who grant the Afrikaaner the right to hate the English. Your P******* attempt at patronizing doesn't make you look clever,it makes you look like an ignorant hyserical little faggot . by Voortrekker on January 18 2010, 13:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Historian Blaming colonialism is senseless. Without colonialism most blacks would not even be here as the huge amounts of food, medicine and infrastructure that colonialism brought, made it possible to feed the black population explosion. It seems blacks are not . .more intelligent enough to realise this without whites again showing them the obvious. . .less by Get real on January 18 2010, 13:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Thanks Lord Max ..............This is a better article ...More to The Point http://www.rense.com/general89/huge.htm This article puts life in South Africa more into perspective ..............A MUST READ by mmm on January 18 2010, 15:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Racism I find the racism on this page indicative of the racism and nationalism in Myburgh's original article. I will no longer visit this site because it is populated by people who long for apartheid and some who wish violence on black people. We have . .more a duty to make South Africa safe and secure for all its people irrespective of race, class, gender or nationality. Zackie Achmat . .less by Zackie Achmat on January 18 2010, 15:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

give us some useful statistics for a change 1. show us the perpetrators, not just the victims, of murders, rapes and violent house robberies based on race 2. the police own crime stats which show a disgusting increase in almost all forms of violent and sexual crimes despite already being among . .more the highest in the world. Yet as long as it is predominantly black on white crime the government and police don't seem to have any problem with this. 3. What percentage of police and government officials have been found guilty of committing crimes or being in cahoots and openly socialising with criminals? why were they often promoted after this discovery? How do we deal with it? By disbanding the Scorpions who were the only effective organisation in addressing corruption in government and the police force at the highest levels. Why? 4. Police stats clearly show the highest instances of violent, aggravated residential robberies, where victims are tortured, occur in the most affluent and predominantly white suburbs. Victims who are almost entirely white, perpetrators who are almost entirely black, victims who are luck enough to survive this ordeal commonly report having racial slurs hurled at them by their tormentors - I don't care what the police chief says - WAKE UP - this is RACIAL HATE CRIME against white people and it is up over 27% from last year! . .less by Reality on January 18 2010, 15:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

crime problem, what crime problem? Assuming you and your friends live to be 75 year old, at the current annual rate of crime, as a South African Citizen, statistically: 1 of ever 36 people you know will be murdered 1 of 9 people you know will be a victim of a reported sexual . .more offence 1 of 2.6 people you know will have their house burgled 1 of 35 people you know will be involved in an aggravated robbery in their house 1 of 5 people you know will be involved in a general aggravated robbery 1 of 43 people you know will be involved in an aggravated car jacking 4.5% of SA citizens will be a victim of some form of crime every year As a white South African Citizen, these number look far worse. To stop racism in South Africa you need to stop the disturbing trend of racism in the highest levels of the current South African government. . .less by reality hurts on January 18 2010, 16:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Freddie You are wrong. Germany has not paid back its reparations for WW1. They will only be paid back by 2020. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations by . on January 18 2010, 16:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

ANC Blinkers ANC dont realise that chasing the qualifies middle class and entrepreneurs out of the country by their failure to adress crime , service delivery, growth, job creation corruption etc. ... - It is AKIN TO HANDING MINERAL WEALTH TO OUR OVERSEAS COMPETITION . .more FOR FREE, except it ishuman capital we need for growth that they are allowing to flow out of the country resulting in reduced growth and loss of jobs. WAKE UP ANC !!!!!!!!!!! . .less by BobHopes on January 18 2010, 16:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Zackie Achmat/racism Bye -Bye Zackie. I have no doubt your insightful contributions will be sorely missed. You could possibly read the Sun News paper instead. by Pioneer on January 18 2010, 17:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@. Actually Germany stopped paying any reparations even before WWII started. The point I am trying to convey, my myopic analyst, is that many other countrys have gone through far worse setbacks than Haiti did 150 years ago. I like your conviction in your . .more bold statement "You are wrong" but I am quite correct, Germany did pay reparations. I never once said they had repaid everything, they never will. You made that incorrect observation. . .less by Freddie on January 18 2010, 17:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@. on German reparations The final payment date is in dispute- German wikipedia says 2010. by Voortrekker on January 18 2010, 17:13 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Voortrekker @Voortrekker -USA gets paid in 2010, other countries 2020 per English wiki. Germany has balked at payments for political reasons since the original agreement finding one excuse after another so its no suprise that German wiki states something different. . .more @Freddie So if you paid Wesbank one month installment your car is paid off? Because thats your logic. You never stated they paid some, your sentence as written implies they paid all. How did Germany and other countries have far worse setbacks than Haiti 150 years ago? . .less by . on January 18 2010, 18:13 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Voortrekker The Berliner archived article also states 2020. http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/1999/1009/none/0001/index.html by . on January 18 2010, 18:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Africa With the empty brainless people in charge there is no hope for the future , these people invented nothing of note ,like the space shuttle etc . so we are doomed, the stupid people are the majority in charge , the liberals that caused this have now left . .more the country and we who are too old to leave sit in this black hole of SA & Africa . They are a useless race that consume and cannot build or invent or develop a country going forward . B LACKS ARE A TOTALLY USELESS RACE , in every country around the world they are a HUGE problem , they fill the prisons even though they are the minority race . IN SA / AFRICA THEY ARE THE MAJORITY RACE HENCE CHAOS . . .less by emty heads on January 18 2010, 19:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Historian Sorry to say this but that is another problem with them. They tend like you have done to blame some event or someone else for their appalling behaviour and failure to make a positive contribution to the world. Why do they not add to the quality of life? . .more They want free handouts, do not want to work, are masters at having millions of babies, corruption is huge in Africa, rape is huge in South Africa, aids is huge in Africa and all this is someone elses fault? Sorry but I think it is their fault. Anyone who can justify the way the Haiti people are behaving now is a very interesting person. Too me they all look like savages from 1000 years ago. Sorry but that is how it looks and to say colonialism causes people like Mugabe to get very very rich and his people devestatingly poor is rubbish. . .less by Agree on January 18 2010, 19:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

MY EARLIER POST. THE TRUTH HURTS SO MY POST ISN'T POSTED . this is Africa . by EMPTY HEAD on January 18 2010, 19:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Agree . RE ; @ Historian The truth the blacks / Africans have a problem with , its everybody else fault , never them . the lack of I Q is a problem with them . by EMPTY HEAD = aFRICA on January 18 2010, 19:37 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Goodbye Well, 1 You supported the root cause of the criminality before the last elections: the ANC 2 The so-called Social Justice Coalition and AIDS Law Project work with your Treatment Action Campaign, Geffen and Nathan are your little white puppets. . .more You would get peeved at their being shown up, wouldn't you. There is more racism in your attitude than in Myburgh's article or the responses. You are welcome to stay away. . .less by To Zachie Achmat on January 18 2010, 21:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hidden link between Race and Crime in South Africa and Germany's non-payment of WWI reparations found in Politicsweb. by Klaus in RSA on January 19 2010, 00:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Klaus in RSA Well Klaus thats to be expected when countries are put on a pedestal and worshipped as countries worthy of emulating. You are virtually guaranteed that all the sordid details will be dragged out into the open, not just the superficial image presented for . .more public consumption. . .less by . on January 19 2010, 06:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@whatever No one is saying there is no white on black crime .... but the way this country leans... ...... it is a BIGGER crime if it is white on black than the other way ... besides its the black youth that are more hateful and revengeful than the those that . .more actually originally suffered under white rule ... .... what wrong did my toddler do to a black ..................... The ANC government are 15 years too late and have dug a hole tso deep SA will never recover which entails that SA will VERY soon be like the rest of AFRICA ... . .less by Five on January 19 2010, 07:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

race and crime people this is africa MUGABE is blaming the WEST 30 years later for a rich coutry he F*** up by ivan on January 19 2010, 07:52 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@. You have completely misread your own "disputed" references in your incorrect statement. Germany is NOT repaying ANY reparations, they stopped way back in the 1930's. They ARE however paying the interest on loans taken at that time (1930's) to pay for some . .more of the reparations back then. These payments now are not for reparations nor to the recipients ito the Versailles Treaty, but repayments of interest on loans taken 70 years ago. BTW Germany and Japan had to be completely rebuilt after WWII, their devastation was way worse that anything Haiti experienced before this earthquake and they had recovered in a couple of decades. Your Wesbank example is so P******* it does not warrant an answer, neither will any of your subsequent statements. This subject is closed. . .less by Freddie on January 19 2010, 16:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

crime crime only exists because the ANC has not kept their promises to us of a better live after apartheid by Fezile on January 23 2010, 14:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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