Morality: Why South Africans will never agree

CAN SOUTH AFRICANS HOLD A MORALITY DIALOGUE?

President Zuma has called upon South Africans to hold a public moral dialogue. The church leaders have taken up this call and said the President is right to call upon the nation to hold such a dialogue.

I believe that the church leaders, in accepting the President's call so enthusiastically, stems from a hope or a belief that it will give them an opportunity to preach Christian values to the nation. They are preachers by profession, and an opportunity to preach to the nation is very welcome.

Others have interpreted this call as an opportunity for them to launch a personal attack on the President about what they consider to be his amoral/immoral behaviour. Yet a discussion on morality cannot be reduced to the behaviour of a single person, even if that person is Jacob Zuma, the whipping boy of the South African press. It is about whether South Africans as a nation can hold such a dialogue on all aspects of human behaviour and reach consensus.

I welcome the President's call personally because, I believe it is time South Africans understood the full extent of how morally polarised they are. The whole world is polarised morally, and irreconcilably so. South Africans are just a small sample of the world population. I will proceed to lay out the issues that keep this nation polarised, and explain why I believe no consensus can be reached on these issues.

History

Four hundred years ago South Africa was colonised by Europeans. It was carried out with great violence and plunder. At the end of it, the indigenous people had lost their land, the livestock, political freedom, culture and identity. Laws were made that made them slaves in the land of their birth.

Land ownership was privatised and the Europeans had the rights to it. It is in our Constitution, the sanctity of private property. Let me ask then what would happen if the Africans wanted to know if it was morally correct for the whites to acquire land the way they did? There would be no consensus. Africans continue to be squatters and shack-dwellers in the land of their ancestors. The ANC is required to pay billions upon billions of rands if they want to re-distribute land. Moral? Yes! The whites will say.

Up until the whites came nobody in Africa believed that land should be sold. Land was freely available to everybody, so that every person had the means to make a living if they were willing to work. That changed with the coming of the white people, and it has become the law of our land. Will a discussion on morality change this? I guess not.

I have heard many whites say they love Mandela, and when you ask them why they love him, they say they love him because he is a good man. Of course Mandela is a good man, but there are many other good black men. Why Mandela specifically? They love Mandela because he did not seek revenge against them for what they did to his people. He did not even require them to apologise for what they had done to his people, and to him as an individual. Now, white people love that, forgiveness without the irritation of having to say ‘I am sorry!' He did not even require restoration; they were left to keep the spoils of their historical plunder.

A related matter to the issue of land is whether the mineral wealth of this country should belong to a few families and individuals or not. It was a simmering debate and Julius Malema triggered it. There was an uproar! President Zuma was asked why he does not shut Julius up, and his reply was that Julius, in a democratic South Africa has a right to air his opinions. He directed them to engage Julius and not require the ANC to silence him. Yet, Julius is raising a moral question. He is saying it is wrong for the mineral riches of a nation to be owned by a few, while the rest languish in poverty. Will a moral debate lead to consensus on this one? My guess is as good as yours.

Racism

Racism has been expunged from our statute books and the ANC government is talking about a non-racial society, among other things. Yet, South Africans read about a growing number of racial incidents, like the incident at the University of the Orange Free State, to state just one. Professor Jansen and Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu went public saying these young men had to be forgiven. Again, no apology had been forthcoming from the offenders. No! They must be forgiven! Reconciliation will never occur unless we forgive these young men, our black leaders said. You can be sure that these young men were taught this behaviour by their parents, and there are many parents among the Afrikaners who still teach their children that it is right to treat Africans that way. A moral dialogue will not change this.

Racism is very much a part of South African society. Now, my question is whether a debate on racism would bring about a moral consensus? Many white people oppose racism, and there are many white people who believe it is right. The latter teach it to their children and perpetuate it in our society. Removing it from our statute books did not, and will never remove it from the hearts and minds of those who peddle it. Even our sport, rugby and cricket, is the private property of a racial group. Sport! Who wants to open a debate on why our rugby and cricket national teams are predominantly white? Why does the ‘old flag' fly at rugby matches without fail?

Christianity versus Islam

The Christians believe they possess a moral code that is superior to every other in the world. Yet the Christians, and specifically the Anglican Church, are split right down the centre on the issue of homosexuality. The issue is still being debated among them and nobody can predict whether there ever will be consensus, moral consensus on this issue. The Catholics are in the same quandary. The Pope has recently had to meet the bishops from Ireland, to try and sanitize the putrid reputation the Church has accumulated in that country because of priests who sodomise altar-boys. The American Catholic Church does not smell differently, for the same reason. Will their moral dialogue put an end to the burning sexual desire that consumes their priests for boys who serve at the altar?

Islam

Islam arrived on our shores from Arabia many centuries ago. In South Africa it has become the fastest growing religion among our citizens. In Africa Islam has declared war on sections of society that are non-Muslim. In Nigeria many lives have been lost in conflicts that are motivated by religious hostility. There are similar conflicts in Sudan. Are we going to experience the same in the coming years here in our country? Can a moral dialogue mitigate the bloody conflicts we see between the adherents of Islam and Christianity. In Iraq, it is not even between Christians and Islam; it is between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. That is what I call serious societal and religious polarisation.

African culture/religion versus Christian culture/religion

Africans are divided over whether the indigenous culture is the right one to follow or the Western/Christian culture and religion. Who will say which culture or religion should have pre-eminence? The opinions on both sides are fixed. Who will say which one is the one to lead us to a moral society?

South Africa is in the grip of a violent moral crisis. Crime is rampant; murder, robbery, rape and corruption are harrowing the country. Children and babies are raped and murdered. Young and old women are raped and murdered. We have male and female prostitution; we have male and female homosexuality. We are extremely polarised politically. Even our lawyers hold different moral views. A recent court case illustrated how morally polarised we are. A woman advocate and her lover (also an advocate) were found guilty of enticing little girls to use them to produce pornography. Her lawyer argued that she should not be jailed for these horrific crimes, because the lawyer claimed, she had seen and accepted the error of her ways. He said it would be wrong for the Court to send her to prison. We are talking about an advocate here, by the way, an advocate of the High Court of South Africa.

Let the moral debate begin, but unless I am sick in my head, my prediction is that South Africans from the various cultural/religious and economic poles will come face-to-face with the degree of their moral polarisation.

Thula Bopela chairs the Council of the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority (PSIRA), and the opinions he expresses here are entirely his own.

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responses to this article

Thula Bopela Either you are a paid troll or you are an idiot. by Camo on March 10 2010, 00:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Very interesting I read with great interest these views on current day South Africa. Two brief notes I wish to point out here: 1) Although South Africa was inhabited by Khoi / San 400 yrs ago, Large areas of Southern Africa were uninhabited. Even as late as late . .more 1800's I have read that during the beginnings of Kimberly and Johannesburg (the start of the mining era) there were vast work force shortages and many a mile has to be travelled in an attempt to find labour. 2) I am shocked at how whites are singled out here as racist. Yes there are definitely racist white people (and they make me sicken me to the extreme) I can't seem to get out of my mind the many times I have been cursed at in the street by my fellow Africans based on the mere fact that I have a white skin. . .less by Mpondondo on March 10 2010, 00:07 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Land... For that matter, why don't the blacks give back the land they stole from the San? Then, blacks need to give back the wheel, electricity, the car, phones, clothing and so forth. Might as well go the whole hog. by K25 on March 10 2010, 00:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A few quick points 1/ Most white skinned people I know have bought any house or farm they own - no one stole anything. They used hard earned cash and a fat bond. Nothing to stop any black skinned person from doing the same. 2/ In your history lesson you forget the . .more colonisation throughout Southern Africa of Shaka. 3/ How can you expect people to embrace a non racial SA when the present government is totally dedicated to racial engineering with as much enthusiasm as the Nats ever did. 4/ White skinned people respected Mandela because he was intelligent, courteous, thoughtful, dignified, and not a money obsessed power hungry tyrant with his nose in the trough. Unlike the ANC leaders of today. . .less by Sad Days on March 10 2010, 00:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Law. Morality. Ethics. Professors Hahlo and Kahn, two leading South African jurists, draw the distinction between law, ethics and positive morality. Law they describe as the only body of rules governing human conduct that is recognised as binding by the state and, if necessary, . .more enforced. As opposed to ethics, which is the science of the rules of moral conduct that should be followed as being good in themselves. Positive morality is the code of conduct adopted as right and proper in a particular country at a given time, but not enforced by the state. How about we start off by agreeing that the law should be enforced and apply to everyone? Including corrupt leaders and politicians? Before we try and reach consensus on morality and ethics? Laws are made by a democratically elected Parliament and can be changed by them. Including the Constitution. . .less by Carl Wille on March 10 2010, 00:59 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The author of this article is telling it exactly like it is. I love this article! www.dealwithwhites.com by David Goldberg on March 10 2010, 06:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

aurora9@gmail.com I say ALL whites should leave Africa. Let blacks have Africa with what Africans produced and invented. We blacks are sick of colonialism. by Sipho on March 10 2010, 06:54 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

DEFIANCE! isn't it amazing how black political thinking is driven not by morals or by common sense but by an overwhelming desire to be DEFIANT! which in turn is a result of a deep-seated inferiority complex by charlie on March 10 2010, 07:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Diversity Although many of his supporting arguments are wrong, Mr. Bopela's conclusion is correct. We are indeed a nation of individuals from widely divergent backgrounds and prejudices. We should recognise this, realise it isn't going to change any time soon, and . .more get on with working together for the common good. A moral debate would be beneficial if we accept that it will clarify differences, but not eradicate them. . .less by Rog on March 10 2010, 07:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

To Charlie, you're right, but... ... wasn't that the same type of 'DEFIANCE' driven by a 'DEEP SEATED INFERIORITY COMPLEX' that we white South Africans practiced when upholding Apartheid - hoping that our small white minority would always be protected by a massive black tide in our mist. by Piet Pompies on March 10 2010, 07:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A Couple of Points 1)Bopela's view on racism is typical -.i.e. only whites can be perpetrators. There is no mention of the blatant and legislated racism on the part of the ANC. Most of his article is so one sided an imbalanced that it's hard to believe that Bopela chairs a . .more regulatory authority - obviously he is there as a "deployed cadre" and presumably not on merit. 2)How does one really argue against the nonsensical vitriol uttered by Mtumbuzi. It's simply too exhausting to have counter all his absurd statements - but, he probabaly is a good examle of the type who support the ANC. But I do have one specific point of issue - he says: ...fall into the arms of right wingers like Zille". Again simply an absurd statement, and I challenge this loyal ANC supporter to repond with clear evidence that Helen Zille is indeed a right winger in the sense he means - If not, then please desist from making this type of comment. 3)Then we have Sipho - which I'm sure is actually a "tongue in cheek" comment. . .less by Democrat on March 10 2010, 08:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hofstede's dynamics hold the key Long-Term Orientation (LTO) versus short-term orientation: this fifth dimension was found in a study among students in 23 countries around the world, using a questionnaire designed by Chinese scholars It can be said to deal with Virtue regardless of . .more Truth. Values associated with Long Term Orientation are thrift and perseverance; values associated with Short Term Orientation are respect for tradition, fulfilling social obligations, and protecting one's 'face'. Both the positively and the negatively rated values of this dimension are found in the teachings of Confucius, the most influential Chinese philosopher who lived around 500 B.C.; however, the dimension also applies to countries without a Confucian heritage. Masculinity (MAS) versus its opposite, femininity, refers to the distribution of roles between the genders which is another fundamental issue for any society to which a range of solutions are found. The IBM studies revealed that (a) women's values differ less among societies than men's values; (b) men's values from one country to another contain a dimension from very assertive and competitive and maximally different from women's values on the one side, to modest and caring and similar to women's values on the other. The assertive pole has been called 'masculine' and the modest, caring pole 'feminine'. The women in feminine countries have the same modest, caring values as the men; in the masculine countries they are somewhat assertive and competitive, but not as much as the men, so that these countries show a gap between men's values and women's values. . .less by JWise on March 10 2010, 08:57 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Thule - wena Lets get educated sahll we: Hofstede a qualified phsychologist has done the work: He found that if a 'culture' does nor re-norm to he modern world they will fail until they acknowledge their cultures weakness.. Zim failed because of . .more cultural failings see his Korean Air study - factual and fascinating... Power Distance Index (PDI) that is the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders. Power and inequality, of course, are extremely fundamental facts of any society and anybody with some international experience will be aware that 'all societies are unequal, but some are more unequal than others'. . .less by JWise on March 10 2010, 09:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I'll go back to EU but will you also then ask those few millions black folk to leave EU as well? I am sure they will rush to the planes to return to Africa. And how about those 40 million living in the US? I am sure they cannot wait to get back to Liberia and other Western . .more African countries. You have to be really STUPID these days to air those kind of views, the world is one living space, accept it. . .less by Yes Sipho on March 10 2010, 09:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mtumbuzi I do understand your anger and frustration. Racism is rife and denied. Our bigger problem however is the abuse of power and position by the upper class and their political lackeys over centuries in Africa. We can hurl stones at each other. Or we can hold . .more our corrupt and self serving leaders [past and present] accountable and move forward together, united in our diversity? Which is it going to be? . .less by Carl Wille on March 10 2010, 09:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Excellent Article The truth must be told and must be out there for everyone to see. I think MNY is beginning to truly embrace the rainbow nation that SA is. Give everyone a chance to air their views. Not one sided view as we have become accustomed to. WE WANT . .more MORE TRUTHS!!!! . .less by Jojo on March 10 2010, 09:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Proof in the Pudding The emotional ferocity in which this is being debated proves the authors point of how polarised we are. As a white South African I found it inciteful. I long for the day that we can all sit at a table and have meaningful debate instead of mindless . .more mudslinging. . .less by RP on March 10 2010, 10:14 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A starting point Perhaps a good starting point is to get hold of the movie "Cabarat" (starring Lisa Minelli and Joel Grey). Nothing I know of illustrates the moral decay in Germany that led to Hitler's Third Reich and consequent pain for all concerned like this movie . .more does. It is also outside of the South African context, but we can view it with hindsight. Then ask yourself - and each other - could it happen here? is it happening here? . .less by Theseus on March 10 2010, 10:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

ANC should provide moral leadership by example! On land: Parts were taken by whites, just as Shaka and others did, much was open. Today nearly half the population (22m) live on communal land, the poverty factory of SA, with low employment and high birth rates. On racism: How can you compare the . .more Reitz 4 with the monthly farm murders? (Both wrong) On morality: Look for universal values: Honesty, integrity and respect for yourself and others. So: Calling the debate is a start, however, the ANC leaders should provide moral leadership, by example - and that is their major failure. . .less by Jan on March 10 2010, 10:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Lets not lose focus The whole call for "moral debate" is nothing but a very good distraction tactic.This allows people to yammer on and on about a topic which is completely subjective and therefore unenforcable. You can't make someone subscribe to your code of ethics and . .more vice versa! It's like giving each grain of sand its own opinion. We must not be distracted by useless topics, and focus on the burning issue of upholding the LAW of this country! We are stillwaiting forgovernment to get serious aboutcorruption. WHy are these people not in jail! How are you going to get those millions back! We demand serious action on mishandled departments and municipalities! For petes sake get rid of unskilled and unqualified managers in government! F -off and mess up your own backyard. Award jobs on merit not cronyism. Outsource the tender process to the auditor-general or SARS. We just want you to do your jobs properly, why is that too much to ASK!!!!! So stop talking K** about irrelevant things and take action to fix up your messes!!! . .less by Geekie on March 10 2010, 10:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

recognise anyone? I think some of the commentators here might find themselves well described in the following article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot Ring any bells fellas? by Jamo on March 10 2010, 11:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

humans never agree... you could without exception take this and apply to any country / region in the world, so it is an issue of the world as you state. Removing colour will bring in religion, removing religion will bring in class, removing class .... We as humans would . .more happily war with blue vs brown eyes if you removed all other factors and whilst there is money. Morals are for sale, people are naturally corruptable, get used to it. Oh, by the by, I find your moral stance that homosexuality equals paedophilia strange, perhaps a bit of pschotherapy may help you with some deep seated issues... . .less by inwiththenew on March 10 2010, 12:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

not to condone / demonise... sodomy of young boys without having the arguments you request, but there are a number of African tribes that see it as a passing of rights..., guesing that they are not Catholics though...and their morals need to be considered. I am in favour of Islam . .more (not extremism, because not in favour of any extremes) though note many women disagree with some of the constraints that I would enjoy if we all adopted it, they are subserviant right? I am not in favour of the alcohol ban, can we fix that in these discussions? who is keeping the minutes? . .less by inwiththenew on March 10 2010, 12:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Can I ask MNY to give you a column to write every week... There are lot of people who need to be challenged and get educated; especially the MNY bloggers. MNY please get the writer to provide articles every day. PLEASE!! Whites messed up South Africa. It is a fact but now they want to blame ANC for it. . .more All the mess that we have in this country today is because of apartheid laws, bantu education, group areas act, slavery laws etc. They had 4 centuries that they used to loot this country and they expect ANC to provide a miracle in 16 years. There is nothing defiant abt this article. The writer is appealing for debate but all you do is judge him. Grow up. You are not that important anymore unless you are willing to help solve the countries problems. Winging willl not help. . .less by Jojo on March 10 2010, 12:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Theseus Eek, your comment managed to conjure up the image of Julius Malema singing `Tomorrow belongs to us (Comrade)'. (At least Weimar had decent cabaret.) by Gus Gosling on March 10 2010, 12:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@jojo Please state these so called facts at how whites messed up South Africa particularly in view of how this countries infrastructure is falling apart.And also explain why a mining industry and many others did not exist 120 years ago in what is now SA. by Mike on March 10 2010, 12:54 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

It is about the future not the past It is easy to play the blame game but what do we believe is right for the future. Do we want individual rights for all citizens regardless of race protected by a constitution? Do we want an accountable government? Do we want citizens . .more property to be protected from government seizure and nationalization. It is too easy to mask the real choices we have for the future of our country by looking backward and using past injustices to justify future injustices. . .less by DD2 on March 10 2010, 13:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Fellow Africans It's time to realise that your future has been under your care for fifteen years. Please stop the groaning and show us the way. by ea on March 10 2010, 13:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Where's the vision? The only reason people start focusing on issues of 'morality', 'ethics', racism etc. is because we don't share a common vision of what life in this country represents to us and thus the World. Most of the world sees us as a miracle; depending on who you . .more ask locally, we either full of opportunity or we are self-imploding. If we can't get the basics right (government AND private sector) then we can forget about making sacrifices that will have to be made to achieve a common vision - NEVER MIND THAT WE DON'T HAVE ONE! Tackling individual issues in isolation is being small minded; we need to be bold and work our socks off to attain what we aspire to. . .less by JABBA on March 10 2010, 14:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Thula you want to tell me zuma knows about morals??? Are you dumb? This guy is more embarrassing for me than Verwoed was. And Verwoed was the worst in my opinion. by Sipho on March 10 2010, 14:10 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

When the European settlers arrived in SA, the blacks were so advanced they didn't use fire, because they knew it caused glabal warming. by VB on March 10 2010, 14:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Upliftment Why should whites pay any more than we already do? We pay taxes, and the taxes are wasted on unused military equipment used to facilitate bribes. If our tax money was used to create an equal society, I would volunteer a larger portion of my income. At the . .more moment we are forced to pay for blue-light brigades and large presidential families. Almost nothing gets to the voting citizens. . .less by Tax money on March 10 2010, 14:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Zuma's call for a morality debate Zuma ***ks his best friends' daughters. That's the issue, not his right to 3 legal wives. Let's debate if our President can be a moral authority if he nobs his best mates daughters. This article discusses why we culturally disparate South . .more Africans may never agree on "morality". Lets not get confused with Christian, Moslem, the Constitution etc. Let's talk about bedding your best friend's daughter - because that is what Zuma has done twice now. - from a Christian, Muslim perspective - not acceptable moral behaviour. Zuma got out of hundred's of corruption charges, while he carried on having unprotected sex with children of his best friends, and then calls for a "morality debate" - are we all going to fall for this? There is no morality anymore around Zuma - he is ammoral, and he is our nations leader. He had unprotected sex inside and outside his marriage after having had unprotected sex with an HIV positive woman. The man is the least moral person I know of. . .less by Andy on March 10 2010, 14:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Nice Article @Sipho. Blacks never invented anything. We will always have racism in this country. White and Black racism. Whites will always argue that they brought civilization to Africa and blacks will always argue that the whites stole their land. I guess both . .more have a reasonable point. Whites will never understand African culture which seems backwards, and to most humanbeings in the world it is backwards. Why dont we forget all this petty arguments. Lets move on and build a better SA. President Zuma should try and instill some morals in himself and the ANC before asking the people. . .less by The Patriot on March 10 2010, 15:43 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Zuma talking about morals? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha What a joke. He is the problem, him and his boyfriend Malema. May they both have some bad luck soon. by Truth on March 10 2010, 15:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

FIRE MALEMA Mnr Zuma if you want do something realy good for the whole of SA.Fire Malema. He is realy not good for the yough of this country.He encourage hate speech.And that is not part of the black people s culture except if they want to go to . .more war. As far as I know we are not in a war situattion.Except if he wants war secretley. . .less by alkie on March 10 2010, 16:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Morals debate It's only once one travels abroad that one realises how absolutely barren this southern tip of Africa is even today. 350 Years ago there was nothing down here. The traces left by earlier inhabitants bear very little and nothing to those that are here . .more today. One needs to excavate the caves to find evidence of any life at all. . .less by RE on March 10 2010, 16:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Morals. Justice. Accountability With the greatest of respect to Saints Mandela and Tutu I do believe that as a society we have erred on the side of ostensible forgiveness and superficial reconciliation. Justice must prevail. Including social and economic justice. Is justice does not . .more prevail we will ultimately have revenge. That is not in any of our interests. White capital [local and foreign] had a choice 20 years ago. To help promote a more caring society as enjoined by our Constitution. Or to continue the abuse and exploitation of the NAT era by pursuing super profits irrespective of the costs. They chose the latter and bought politically connected black South Africans to support them in their endeavours. They got the super profits. The poor got poorer and the divide between the rich and poor increased. Is this sustainable? Is it in the best interest of South Africa? I submit not. The only way we are going to stop this is for the working class, the middle class, professionals and intellectuals to unite and hold the top 10% and their political lackeys accountable. We can do it. We must do it. It is up to us. . .less by Carl Wille on March 10 2010, 23:02 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Why do blacks cover up for the shameless rip-off by blacks of blacks? While the looting perpetrated by ANC comrades at all levels of government and associated institutions may be financed heavily by white taxpayers, the real losers are the black majority which keeps voting the crooks into power. Now here's a good . .more debate: How can we stop the inevitable self-destruction of Africa by Africans? . .less by Hold them accountable, and hang them high! on March 10 2010, 23:57 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

is nothing is wright or everything wrong? Mr. Thula Bopela you are a great philosopher. I have never seen so many reactions on an article. Obviously you are moving in the right direction. You have my appreciation. by fc on March 11 2010, 06:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

now we need leadership To make decision one need options. The above article is and ideal start to open debate and find options. Who will become the leader to manage this? by fc on March 11 2010, 06:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Well done Great article. Probably the best Politicsweb has managed to post in years. This is what I would like to see more of. The great pity is that so many people responding to the article are too narrow-minded to recognise the depth of the questions it is . .more asking. The only possible way for this debate to end successfully is for us to find those things that we do agree on and concentrate less on the things we don't. Of course we don't share the same moral views with everyone. I don't even share the same moral views as the rest of my family. But there are things which we agree on and on which we can build a common identity. That's the approach we need to take. We can go forever arguing about our differences, because people's minds will not be changed about many things. But if we spent less time shouting at each other and more time recognising our commonalities, we'd surprise ourselves how few are our differences compared to those things which we share. . .less by Dolfie on March 11 2010, 08:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@morality It is more important to have a debate on being civilised first before having a debate on morality. Yes, the country did belong to the Khoi & San people and not to the blacks, the blacks came from the North and the white from the South. Problem with . .more the minerals are that if the whites did not mine it, it would still be underground. . .less by Koos on March 11 2010, 08:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Thula Bopela Racism is the core ANC political strategy to keep the party alive. Without Racism the ANC would last 6 months. They are fossils that constantly have to remind us of ancient history to remain relevant....Dodos. That's why they have unleashed . .more the racist Malema to stir up the fires. The more they struggle to remain relevant amongst the people that don't remember their apparent role in Apartheid, the more racist their policies will have to become and the more "terrible" apartheid will be when re-written into our history books. Having lived through 15 years of Apartheid and having been a student during the transition, I find it interesting how they are now telling the youth that they wrestled this country from the whites by force. Sorry guys that just did not happen and there is no way that the incompetent ill disciplined MK could ever in a million years even with Cuban, Russian and Chinese help have defeated the SADF. Maybe the fat lazy SADF of today. As for Morals..to each his own...just dont impose yours on others or make them foot the bill for your lack therof. Want to have 100 wives ...no problem ..pay for them yourself. . .less by Fred on March 11 2010, 09:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

And Considering that... most of the ANC were doing "Huntley's" (Hiding under rocks and universities) outside of the country, I have to wonder why some of the other parties that were actually here in the country were not given more credit. Personally I think liberal whrte . .more students played a bigger role (in country) than all the ANC " Exiles" that were too poop scared to stay and fight or too buy doing first year for the 12th time at Harvard or Oxford. . .less by Fred on March 11 2010, 09:24 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

We need a morality dialogue ASAP to justify corruption, sloth, avarice and perversion as African culture by Corrupshiniwami on March 11 2010, 09:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

blah blah i love this politicsweb site. it is good to vent one's spleen, and we must do it while we can.i don't read the star or sunday times anymore because they have been hijacked by the anc boeties. the political shoe is on the other foot but us whiteys are . .more not going to shut up. because if we do you darkeys will screw us with a big pineapple. and if sites like this are painted with a black brush we will move onto the next form of media. so suck it up bro! . .less by jungleboy on March 11 2010, 11:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Clap clap clap.... You are 100% right you and I will never agree Mr Bopela. I am not sure if you are actually trying purposefully to be provocative and without objectivity, but clearly only whites are racist in your eyes, and all previous injustices should just serve as . .more precedence for the next injustice. Screw moving forward, its way more fun to just commit the same atrocity. . .less by lost hope on March 11 2010, 14:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

clap clap clap... Talking about moral, when do previous white sins cease to be an issue?? One generation? Ten? I myself, though in a very priviledged circumstance because of my forefathers (though the point missed is that privilege was worked extremely hard at to maintain . .more through generations, by actually buying houses, educating, working hard), have not been part of the commited atrocities, have not even been on this earth long enough to rememebr such a time!!! Though I can still see the results, when does it become good enough to get past the past? When am I free from fear that you will just take my land and drive me out? Yes, whites are basically asking blacks (against whom these atrocities were not committed directly) to take the higher moral stance, that is the only way forward. Mandela is loved because he understands that. When will blacks work hard for what they want? When do blacks look after their own (ANC hasn't done this) and stop looking for excuses and handouts? . .less by lost hope on March 11 2010, 14:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The Faltering Right The main stream media has made rather sweeping pronouncements on morality of late. Certain sections of the media and political right are fast to shout immorality but when you ask them for their basis then they all go silent. Why? The reason is simple. . .more Half of them are atheists and so they can't call upon any religion to motivate their thoughts. Further they can't even find anything Darwinian to motivate their thinking which is so often the basis of their mantras. Many of their own supporters have a hastily constructed morality that has been made up on the fly. The main stream media and the fractured right have been caught in their own web. They know the more they proclaim on these issues the more hollow the sound. . .less by Amused on March 11 2010, 16:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Morality Dialogue Thanks for your responses folks. Their diversity help to prove what I set out to prove; that consensus on almost anything is impossible in this so-called Rainbow Nation. by Thula Bopela on March 12 2010, 14:59 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

No Hope it's quite disturbing that so many including Thobela has no hope for the future of South Africa, no positives in your letter, only a bleak view through your misty glasses. Apartheid was a moral issue, that destroyed and divided a nation in every aspect. . .more Politically; blacks against whites, Economically; poor against rich,... implementation of the Group areas act, immorality act; ... we have had our share of being a divided nation. Our solution is in having the right leaders to lead us again. A diversified nation is not a weak nation, but calls for tolerance of others who are different to you. Mandela is a great leader, together with the late Oliva Tambo & The late Walter Sisulu. You cannot blame others for not believing in the current leaders of the ANC. They just do not measure up to that quality standard of a true leader. Lack of moral values have brought HIV/ AIDS pandemic, Drug and substance abuse, raping and killing of babies (only in S.A ), Mutilation of body parts of young children, domestic violence, corruption and fraud ... what must we do as government and as a community to stop these evils in society. These issues must be discussed within the framework of morality in South Africa. Let's stop the philisophical nonsensical theories and get down to repairing the broken wall of ours nation, practically. . .less by BrotherG on March 12 2010, 17:13 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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