Winnie Mandela is right

A lot has been said about Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's views about her former husband and comrade's causal actions in the negotiations. I will thus start this article by declaring boldly that Mandela plus other leaders at the time let Black people down with all the compromises that the ANC eventually entered into or by succumbing to undue pressure which was exerted on him whilst he was on Robben Island and later Victor Verster prisons.

The late Mr Reginald Oliver Tambo had warned against holding negotiations in South Africa and had actually preferred a neutral territory e.g. Zimbabwe. It was as if OR (as Tambo was affectionately known in exile and locally) knew that the apartheid government would employ university professors of psychology, trained National Intelligence Services agents/operatives and many others experts as negotiators who would later use clandestine tactics in order to weaken and break-down the resolute Mandela's psych.

In the end, that is exactly what happened and Mandela was tricked into taking a soft approach towards his incarcerators. Instead of heeding OR's advice, Mandela conducted the preliminary negotiations in Robben Island and this so peeved the late Govan Mbeki that at one stage they were not in speaking terms. Dr Mandela did of course write a letter to OR informing him about these developments whilst he was in prison. The existence of these negotiations has been confirmed by three independent people namely Ahmed Kathrada, Professor Vladimir Shubin and Mr Riaan Labuschagne although the former two gentlemen may not share my sentiments on his letting the struggle down.

It is public knowledge that Mr Kathrada was in prison for many years with Mandela and he recently took former president Thabo Mbeki to task for ignoring Mandela's role in negotiations whilst in prison. He penned a hard hitting article which appeared in the Sunday Independent newspaper wherein he refuted Mbeki's claim to having been the one who started the negotiations. Although this latter point is debatable but that is a subject for another day, suffice to say that in Mbeki's case he started negotiations with the Afrikaners as far back as 1986, without even OR's knowledge. Mandela met former president Piet Botha on 5 July 1989 in which meeting the latter asked him to distance himself from the SACP and renounce the armed struggle.

In his response wrote thus, "we consider the armed struggle a legitimate form of self defence against a morally repugnant system of government which would not allow even peaceful forms of protest. It is more than ironical that it should be (the apartheid) government which demands that we renounce violence. The government knows only too well that there is not a single political organisation in this country inside or outside parliament which can ever compare with the ANC in its total commitment to peaceful change".

I have previously quoted Dr Mandela's response after that meeting in relation to the SACP therefore I will not go into that subject for now. Mr Labuschagne is a former NIS operative who worked with Dr Niel Barnard (then a Director-General of the NIS) who was incidentally present at the ANC's Kabwe Conference in 1985. He had infiltrated the ANC, purporting to be a journalist and has since written a book about his sojourn entitled "On South African Secret Service". He has documentary proof of his engagement with the NIS including photographs to back up his claims.

Professor Shupin spent 30 years assisting the ANC and during that time he had intimate dealings with senior leaders of the ANC and in the Communist Party of the then USSR, therefore this settles the argument on whether or not any negotiations took place between Mandela and the apartheid system. What is perhaps up for debate is whether or not he let us down and some people in an effort to protect Dr Mandela's legacy may want to brush this fact under the carpet.

Those who are as brutally honest as I am however (the likes of Winnie) would agree that Mandela did in fact let us down. I am thus not at all surprised that this struggle stalwart and former mother of the nation, Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela expressed similar sentiments. This is after all Mandela's former wife therefore she knows him better than all of us. Instead of people condemning her, they should be asking - what do you mean Mrs Madikizela-Mandela? Sadly, the blood, sweat, sacrifice and death of our former guerillas plus local cadres hasn't paid off in terms of economic emancipation. We have instead ended up with the status quo prevailing with the minority controlling all the means of production.

This amongst other things is what has led to Julius Malema being attacked for calling for nationalisation of key industries including mines. The indigenous people's rights to land, mineral resources and everything else that was stolen from our forefathers back in 1652 when Jan Van Reebieck first sailed into our shores were trampled upon in the process. When the founding father of the ANC, one Themba Pixley kaIsaka Seme pooled all tribes together in 1912 under the slogan "MSotho, MZulu, MXhosa hlanganani" he had the complete economic emancipation of Black people in mind.

He certainly did not intend for the half hearted compromise that was achieved in Kempton Park. Under the stewardship of Chief Albert Luthuli, the ANC led a campaign called the Congress of the People through which the Freedom Charter was written in 1955.

I will go on to say that had Mandela not been captured, he too would probably still have held strong views against his oppressors. We should not allow Mandela's commercialisation success and elevation to international icon status to cloud the truth that, "he negotiated a poor deal for Black people", to put it in Winnie's words. As a people, African in particular we deserved better but little if any was achieved to economically benefit future generations. The BEE moguls, Black middle and tenderpreneurs should not be used as a measure of the economic upliftment of Black people because they are a minority.

It has thus caught me by surprise that instead of Winnie's views being applauded, she has instead been vilified and called all sorts of names by Patrick Laurence (see article). I actually read with interest that article by Mr. Laurence who now thinks that Winnie's views may become a precursor to the dearth of her political career. Mrs. Madikela-Mandela has been written off on numerous occasions by her detractors and oppressors but in all that time she always managed to bounce back.

I believe that their divorce, notwithstanding Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela's indiscretions, may have been engineered by the state and those who colluded with it within the ANC so that her hard-line stance would not influence Mandela. So much consternation has been caused amongst some sections of our society, that they now call her all sorts of names. This is the same society which today believes that if and when Mandela dies Black people will terrorise them.

Winnie's condemnation by those who are ignorant of the truth (or simply those who want to rewrite history - journalists, of the likes of Laurence) is meaningless though. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela spent almost her whole life fighting against oppression and the injustices against our people. In that time she spent almost 30 years married to former president Nelson Mandela therefore she can speak with authority in any subject that relates to her former husband.

It thus surprises me when journalists and leaders want to second guess Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's views when they have neither stayed with him nor were they ever married to him for decades. When I attended the lecture that she delivered at Wits University last month on the 20th anniversary of Dr Nelson Mandela's release from prison she spoke passionately about their time together. If I have to make a choice between taking views (any views at all) between those expressed by Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela and the doubting Thomases who condemn her on the subject Mandela, I would go with Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's as the voice of authority.

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It's not Mandela's fault What an absurdity to blame the parlous state of black South Africans on Mandela. The ANC have been running the country for a good many years now, and if they were not so interested in enriching themselves, their friends, and family, they might have been . .more able to do something about it. Mandela was necessarily a transitional figure. The next generation were supposed to sort the poor out - but instead they appear to have sold out - since they are now wealthy businessmen, and their interests are identical with other wealthy businessmen, of whatever colour. . .less by Sue Donim on March 14 2010, 18:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

no clout and how exactly, musa, do you suppose the 'economic emancipation' would come about? It is this sense of entitlement which is a plague to this country. by Dan on March 14 2010, 18:55 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Bad deal? I am a young, white New South African. I have personally worked alongside my fellow South Africans, among them "black" South Africans, for every cent of my "means of production". You speak for a minority who are too lazy to work for the potential material . .more benefits that democratic freedom provides. Fine, take mine, soon your ideological siblings will come for yours. After all, that's all you're teaching them. Alternatively, use the freedom Mr. Mandela bought you and produce something of value yourself. . .less by Marius on March 14 2010, 19:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

You Musa Xulu, like Winnie, seems to be retarded. by Anon on March 14 2010, 19:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

rubbish Divorced women really shouldn't be the final arbiter on the legacy of their ex-husbands. If Mandela had done what you think is correct you'd have been chased up into Zim by now, living in a country that is quickly devolving into pre-van Riebeek status. by Richard on March 14 2010, 19:23 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Power Model You let yourselves down,. You were not educated that your vote mean't you were to hold your leaders accountable,.. That you have worked rather on forming a 'role model' elite class, that if anything has parasited its way thus far sucking off rescources . .more headed for the truly impoverished as you speak of,.. These new black elite, the stalwarts etc, comrades,. the pigs in the kitchen each night,.. drinking their man liquor, sleeping on beds with white linen sheets,.. Convincing the farm animals they need their fancy cars,.. need their travel gates out the farm etc,.. Four legs were seemingly good, two legs seem now far better,... Like the 'trickle down' economy of big investment in rural areas,.. "trickle" being the key word,.. Globalization has its hands on your politicians,.. . .less by PJ Powers on March 14 2010, 19:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

winnie What I am concerned about is what the negotions at Kempton Park were about. I am also concerned why a groups of resoected elderly statesmen and revolutionary never told the Nation about these negotiiations. attacking winnie Mandela won't wash . .more away the need to know... Perhaps the revelation of the negotiations will reveal wny Blacks are still so disadvantaged. We want to know the truth . .less by Themba Miya on March 14 2010, 19:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reality Mr. Musa seems to be very much detached from reality and seems to know very little about economics in general. Like there is some magical deal Mandela could have made that would have enriched the entire black education deprived nation. But I suppose in a . .more democracy any racist fool can express his opinion no matter how foolish and filled with political motives it may be. Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. . .less by Jacques on March 14 2010, 20:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

YOU are right MUSA "Sadly, the blood, sweat, sacrifice and death of our former guerillas plus local cadres hasn't paid off in terms of economic emancipation. We have instead ended up with the status quo prevailing with the minority controlling all the means of . .more production." Justice must prevail. Including social and economic justice. If not revenge will. The working class, middle class, professionals and intellectuals must unite and hold the upper class and their political lackeys accountable. This is the only way we will bring an end to the culture of impunity and address the unsustainable, criminal, immoral and dangerous divide between rich and poor in South Africa. Justice of Revenge? What do you choose? . .less by Carl Wille on March 14 2010, 20:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Indigenous People How convenient to draw a line at 1652 when Jan van & co. stole South Africa from the indigenous inhabitants. A closer and more correct look at history with an archaeological basis shows that all Xhosas, Zulus, Sesothos, Pedis etc. are invaders themselves . .more (albeit before the white man) leaving only a very small percentage of South Africans as indigenous inhabitants. Surely the only logical path is to return the country and its mineral wealth to people such as the Gwi, !Kung and friends (otherwise known as the derogatory Bushmen or San). Of course peering further into the depths of time we see that all humans alive today had ancestors that originated in Africa and any logical basis for this argument falls away. I for one do not want handouts, particularly not racially based ones. The resurgence of the concept of race in mainstream populist politics and the continued empasis in the media serve only to prolong the evil influence of Apartheid. How sad that so many now choose to gladly embrace those racist prejudices simply because they now benefit from them. When my fellow South Africans see my success I wish them to realise that it is from my hard work, good fortune and intellect, and not due to affirmative action and ruling party connections. This I believe is the only way that one can hold one's head high in a nations of equals . .less by Charles Mabanga on March 14 2010, 20:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Carl Wille Justice or Revenge? Will the upper class and their political lackeys ever engage in meaningful dialogue? Will they confront their denial? Will they give up any of their ill gotten gains? NEVER. Bring me my MACHINE GUN. by Che on March 14 2010, 21:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

What Winnie actually said....? ? The liberal (therefore it must be true) Guardian UK newspaper reported on Fri 12 Mar 2010 ,what Winnie Mandela actually responded concerning the Naipaul revelations, viz, (in part):- "Madikizela-Mandela said she had spoken to Archbishop Tutu . .more about the Evening Standard story & would be speaking to Mandela & his wife, Graca Machel. "Finally I repeat that I did not give Ms Naipul any interview," she said. "Any further questions about the content of that fictitious interview should be addressed to her." " There you have it - from Winnie herself. So, why is Musa Zulu's article responding to this "fiction" as though it were all true. And then all the collective hot air & even hotter postings. Pheeeeuuwwwhhh!!! I have lost track of who is lying to whom about what. Suggestions: Let us all hang back & let the smoke & mirrors clear. Then let's wait & see how Winnie Mandela, Nadira Naipaul, & the media, find a means to revealing the TRUTH about what was actually said (who knows, there might even be a witness or a tape recording). I am sure both women & the media are thick skinned enough to fight this out unaided. Why are we (Musa Zulu et al) falling over one another to debate as fact that which Winnie herself labels bluntly as fiction and a non-debate. Shame, poor South Africa :( The Chikurubi Kid . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 14 2010, 22:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Our country had a period where good will and millions of rands poured into this country yet.... Money for building schools ,feeding children, providing water and ablutions from the EU was not used because of not being able to allocate it according to the rules of the donation . ie specific outcomes was eventually sent back Teacher . .more training colleges,nurses colleges,technical high schools, Trade schools were shut down. Rural upliftment programmes were not set up Municipalities which traditionally were used for practical training of artisans had their qualified engineers flushed out as part of a scheme to rid them of white people through encouraging them to take packages. This resulted in the poor not being able to train in various fields of work that would have uplifted them and made them employable. The boarders were thrown open and 20 million people soon became 50 million Aids/Hiv spread through the country leaving an estimated 2million orphans with no plan to nurture and protect them. Angry uneducated, school dropout teenagers are on the rise with crime and drug trafficking the only real way to make money. Do any of you think that Madiba could foresee that Mbeki's watch would allow this to happen? I think not. . .less by didi on March 14 2010, 23:41 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

John Austin The issues need to be aired and debated. Whether or not Winnie raised them is, with respect, not the issue. We did err or the side of ostensible forgiveness and superficial reconciliation. Justice must prevail. Including social and economic . .more justice. If not revenge, unfortunately, will prevail. Justice or Revenge? What do you choose, from your safe haven in London? John, do you think the upper class and their political lackeys may just confront their denial and engage meaningfully with the rest of South Africa? Do you think that we could avoid the Justice or Revenge dichotomy? Through meaningful dialogue? What do you think, John from London? . .less by Carl Wille SOUTH AFRICA on March 14 2010, 23:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Justice or Revenge? It's a pity Carl Wille does not spell out what he means by "justice" for the poor. Maybe he cannot? Are well to do people to blame for the poverty of the poor? In virtually every country in the world there are rich people and poor people, and Wille, . .more seems to imply that this phenomenon in SA implies there is no "justice" . Do tell us Mr Wille by what mechanism "justice" is to be achieved. If Mpho is uneducated and can do no more than manual labour, and this particular skill is in over-supply in the economy and Mpho therefore remains jobless, is his condition the fault of governments past and present? What does Mpho expect by way of "justice"? And if he cannot get that, what form must his "revenge" take, and how will this "revenge" improve his prospects and that of his kids? And if it is a fact that economic skills reside mainly in the hated but well-intentioned minority, by what means can the good intentions of that minority, currently politically impotent, be harnessed for the benefit of the poor? The politicians the poor have voted into power have spent more time enriching themselves than they spent devising reasonable means of alleviating the long-term lot of the poor. Taking "revenge" on the hated minority rather than on the incompetent politicians will be a rather stupid course of action, don't you think? . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 00:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Carl Wille's strange dichotomy : Justice or Revenge Carl Wille proclaims : "Justice must prevail. Including social and economic justice. If not revenge will. The working class, middle class, professionals and intellectuals must unite and hold the upper class and their political lackeys . .more accountable. This is the only way we will bring an end to the culture of impunity and address the unsustainable, criminal, immoral and dangerous divide between rich and poor in South Africa. Justice of Revenge? What do you choose?" This sounds very much like communist revolutionary rant a la 1917. It is in response to a lament that the "blood, sweat, sacrifice and death of our former guerillas plus local cadres hasn't paid off in terms of economic emancipation" Sounds like pretty crazy stuff to me! What sort of "revenge" will bring economic emancipation? Seems the author of this is counting on those he wishes to incite to violence to be too stupid to realise how ridiculous and absurd his call is! . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 01:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Carl Wille - Justice or Revenge..... Really ? ? Actually, I am born in Harare (via Chikurubi Detention), now in London. I was driven from high office in the Zim Govt by the criminal elite of the current regime. When appropriate, I will raise my opinion on issues I consider I am qualified or . .more experienced to comment. So, why use the Winnie debacle to shoot from the hip, Carl ? You have your views, some of them valid even, I think? BUT it is never all about one simple issue "justice OR revenge", "dialogue OR ???", "rich OR poor", "ruling classes OR other classes", this OR that, them OR us. First your "issue" was "white denialism", now it is "justice or revenge", & I wonder what the next "black or white" issue will be? For me there is only one route to real justice & peace.... & that is truthfullness & honesty (in full measure). This is not to be found in any one race, war, party, movement or class - BUT in the independent structures of state that we setup and staff with apolitical, impartial & honest office bearers. If the ANC & SA continue doggedly following the ZANUpf model of supplanting party structures & cadres into every unbroken facit of government, it will end up the same way. Then the apartheid Nats will claim to be proved right. Surely SA deserves better? Direct your thoughts to Justice through Dialogue & Truth - to avoid Revenge? Harare maBoyi . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 15 2010, 01:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@CarlWille - We did err on the side of..... You write: "We did err or the side of ostensible forgiveness and superficial reconciliation". A cuppla questions arise out of that bald statement, viz - 1. By writing "ostensible forgiveness" & "superficial reconciliation" are you . .more saying that the "forgiveness & reconcilliation" has been a national sham; or that all "forgiveness & reconcilliation" was a national error? and 2. By writing in the plural "We" - on whose collective behalf do you purport to be making such statements & on what qualification or authority? Just wondered.... A Chikurubi Graduate :) p.s. Who are "the upper class & their political lackeys needing to confront their denial"? If I agree with ANY of their opinions, will that make me "upper class", or "a political lackey", or something else? Can't I just be me? Must we all be them or us?. If I don't share one man's opionion, does that make me the lackey of someone else? Or if I do agree, could it also qualify me as non-lackey, working class, or what? If I am black or white, then what? Heeeeeellllpp, Carl ! . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 15 2010, 02:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

"The means of production" Of course, the phrase "...controlling all the means of production." in the above article is a give-away about the ideology. You either have capitalism in which free individuals control the means of production, or you have state control of the . .more means of production (while the politburo claims it is in the hand of the "people"). Now guess what is meant above.... . .less by JVR on March 15 2010, 02:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

yet now that Winnie has categorically denied having had even an interview. it would mean either she or the media are brazenly lying. If the liar is Winnie, is she once again deviously positioning herself for another attempted come-back, once the dust has settled, knowing there is political muscle support for such sentiments? by gab oke on March 15 2010, 03:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Capitalism, Communism, Scientific Socialism Captains log: STARSHIP HARARE.... early 1980's..... honeymoon phase--- A colleague of mine Kumbirayi and I were talking of the merits of capitalism viz-a-vis the Zim govt's push towards "Scientific Socialism" to replace western style . .more capitalism. (I don't know why capitalism had to be prefixed "western styled" but it was. A bit like "white" denialism & "upper class" or "bourgeoise" lackeys & running dogs I suppose, but I digress). Anyway, Kumbirayi & I were discussing this in Harare Custom House at the time because of the upsurge in Zim's equivalent of "tenderpreneurs". We called them "briefcase businessman" of the "get-rich-quick brigade", always black (often as a frontman), always politically connected, occasionally (but seldom) capable businessmen. Always quick to denounce any racist, neo-colonialist, counter-revolutionaries who obstructed them when dishonesty or corruption was found out, as was often the case. In chewing this all over together during a smoke/tea break one morning, I asked Kumbirayi how this sort of thing fitted in with the govt's policy of Scientific Socialism. He looked at me with surprise & mischief in his expression saying "Don't you know what Scientific Socialism means". When I told him I wasn't sure, he explained thus: "It's the new majority rule speak for State Capitalism". Chikurubi Kid . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 15 2010, 04:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Let me help you Mpho I doubt Mr. Wille wants revenge. I think that he is saying that revenge is inevitable, unless justice prevails. Including social and economic justice. He is trying to avoid revenge by arguing for justice or at the least meaningful dialogue. Not every . .more country had 46 years of Apartheid. A crime against humanity. The upper class, past and present, have benefited the most from Apartheid. The upper class and their corporations had a decision to make 20 years ago. They could have made a meaningful contribution to the transformation of our society into a more caring and egalitarian one, as enjoined by our Constitution. They, unfortunately, decided to continue the exploitation and abuse and achieved this by buying politically connected black people to help them maintain the status quo. They were successful. They achieved super profits. The rich got richer. The poor got poorer. The government of the day looked the other way. Hence we are where we are today. The greatest divide between rich and poor on planet earth. Despite our mineral wealth. Clearly not sustainable? . .less by Samora on March 15 2010, 04:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Heap of C*** Winnie and the rest of the ANC should stop making out that they give a damn about the poor. What they want is to get rid of the pesky whites that constantly show how murderously stupid and greedy they are. Spoils their party a little by Spaqrtacus on March 15 2010, 07:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Samora I find all this so strange. The corporations appear to have been acting within the law of the land, and to have contributed to making available the wherewithal needed to pay the grants on which so many of the poor rely. In practical terms, . .more what do expect the corporations to do? Their capital is owned by millions of shareholders, many of whom rely on the income of the corporations for survival (pensioners and pension funds too!). I ask again, what exactly do you expect the corporations to do, given that they do not make the laws or dictate the rules by which the economy operates. What exactly is the nature of their "exploitation" and "abuse"? It seems to me everyone will be much poorer if the corporations pack up and go. Surely it is the elected Government that needs to dictate the way the corporations should operate, without of course wrecking the economy. Surely your anger and revenge, if justified, needs to be directed at the ANC-led government? . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 08:52 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

State Delivery It is not that it was such a bad deal, it was simply that the new ANC goverment could not deliver on its promises due to the purge of competent whites from the civil service and poor policy decisions eg Eskom. The ANC goverment, of which Winnie is one, . .more has horribly short sold the poor with nepotism, cardre deployment and blatant corruption at all levels of civil society. But then, its probably easier to blame the whites than acknowledge their own short comings - sounds a lot like Zim. Furthermore, Masa, who will provide the capital required for the development of the mines and infrastructure - the state, as is happening in Zim? Get real, and move on from the retoric, we need pragmatic thinking now that the "struggle" is over!! . .less by Realist on March 15 2010, 10:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Some thoughts on Justice Start with the unfinished business of the TRC. To establish leadership accountability and the rule of law in South Africa we need to prosecute all leaders and corporations implicated in gross human rights violations that have not been granted amnesty. . .more Hold Mbeki and his Cabinet accountable for the unlawful Arms Deals and their criminal HIV-AIDS policies. Break up corporate monopolies and the deadly grip they have on our economy. Review our competition laws and prosecute all CEO's and board members implicated in price-fixing and anti-competitive behaviour. Prosecute those involved in insider trading. Deal with excessive executive remuneration. Impose a once off wealth tax on individual and corporate assets over the value of R1 million rand. Create a fund presided over by government and civil society to help establish and grow small and medium enterprise, the drivers of future wealth and growth. Insist on full disclosure of political party funding. There is so much more. I am sure the upper class and their political lackeys could come up with many more creative and practical solutions. They will, however, only do that if the escape their denial and engage in meaningful dialogue? Can they do that? . .less by Che on March 15 2010, 11:32 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The greatest divide IS planet earth Samora says: "Hence we are where we are today. The greatest divide between rich and poor on planet earth. Despite our mineral wealth. Clearly not sustainable?" I fail to see this as any "eureka" event, however! SA is NOT the greatest . .more divide between rich & poor on this planet. The whole planet is. And, it doesn't have its roots in apartheid or race but in humanity & ALL of us. CAPITALISM is as old as human history itself. Greed, exploitation, fabulous wealth, abject poverty & slavery were not born yesterday. Modern democracy, when working properly, seeks to manage & harness this hard-wired human quality for collective need. Flawed as it is, it beats the alternatives. To my mind all other "isms" (socialism, liberalism, non-denialism, ad nauseumisms) come out of well-meaning naivete at best or deliberate power grabbing at worst. Show me a so-called "anti capitalist" leader anywhere without suits, cars, houses, bling, etc? Or shanty towns without TV aerials? Call it what you like, "capitalism" is in us as long as we breathe. Know the beast, use it, discipline, control, feed from it. Killing it benefits nobody worthy - look north for a case study. The mechanism is good honest democratic government with honest & tinker-proof non-partisan state machinery, judiciary, & a free media. Think about it. Chikurubi Kid . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 15 2010, 12:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Musa Xulu is a master of illogical thinking "Winnie Mandela is right" Musa Xulu in what way do you say Winnie is right? She has denied the substance of it all so you have no-one to defend. But in case you are delluded enough not to know. Mandela divorced Winne because he couldn't stand . .more Winnie going after younger men (including Dali Mpofu). Do you think Mandela would have allowed his dignity as a president to be dragged to a love triangle? Divorce was not forced on Mandela by some sinister force as you allege. It was Winnie who was responsible for it all. I am still to hear anything in terms of an alternative to the negotiated settlement from you. I maintain that the deal Mandela got is the best deal for this country. You also seem to believe that because Winnie was married to Mandela therefore she has more authority than others to express views on Mandela, you are wrong. It is well known that bitter divorced women cannot express any objective views on their former husbands. But then of course Winnie has helped you for she says she never even said the things you are defending her for. . .less by Lwi on March 15 2010, 13:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Che's thoughts on justice Quite a bit of what you offer is already part of good practice and/or already on the SA statute books. A bit of impartial & honest application of the existing rules & laws - so that they bite without fear or favour - would be a step in the right . .more direction, don't you think? The support or otherwise of the upper classes & their political lackeys are not required to deliver on the good law & structures already in place in SA, as you seem to suggest. Put simply, the honest, unbiased, determination & effort of the vast army of South African middle & working class proletariat already employed in the nation's civil administration should already be delivering. If they can't or won't, fire them..... there are plenty unemployed in SA where keen & capable replacements can be recruited. Another area where SA is blessed with abundance is in human resources. Why not use the best from that pool? Find & reward merit, whilst seeking out & removing sloth & corruption..... or is it easier to just blame your pet denialists, upper classes, lackeys, etcetera. You'll never fix a problem if you don't first admit to owning it. Think about it ! Chikurubi Kid :) p.s. glad to see you left your machine gun out of your latest fix ! :) . .less by John Austin, London on March 15 2010, 13:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Learn your history lessons Charles @ Charles Mabanga, interesting but wrong history my friend and fellow White person. I can tell from your writing style that you are not Black and this I judge from having reviewed many scripts from students. f I were you, I would go and claim back my . .more school fees from my history teacher because you clearly got the wrong end of the deal. Allow me to educate you Sir, the Zulus, Xhosas etc originated from South Africa way back hence they are called Ngunis because their forefather was Mnguni who had several sons and daughters, amongst them was Zulu and Xhosa hence there are similarities in their dialects and languages. The sons migrated as far as DRC and Malawi in their bid to conquer other tribes/nations in Southern Africa and beyond. It was a combination of other subsequent wars and a need to go back home that necessitated that they come back home to South Africa. When King Shaka kaSenzangakhona during Imfecane, what we Whites call the wars of calamity went on a conquering spree in order to carve and create the Mighty Zulu nation, he was following on his forefathers' footsteps . .less by Bronwyn on March 15 2010, 14:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Che, Wille and John Austin Unlike Wille, the other two have pretty good ideas. Well done Che for spelling things out, I am sure most level-headed people will see lots of merit in what you propose. Your proposal for a wealth tax makes me nervous. How much of it do you think . .more will escape the clutches of the kleptomaniac ANC politicians in charge and their deployed cadres? Do you think the ANC-led Government has the capacity and the will to "Create a fund presided over by government and civil society to help establish and grow small and medium enterprise, the drivers of future wealth and growth."? If only this were possible we'd be much so better off than with the current mess generated by cadre deployment and mindless racist "transformation" screwing up everything that once used to work. . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 14:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Musa Xulu the instant immature political pundit I am worried about the poverty of ideas that is cripping our country. Who is Musa Xulu? Can anyone tell us about where he studied and what did he study. He seem to be too excited and in the process misrepresent facts. He, in his article about Winnie, . .more telling us Mandela and his group of leaders let us down with the compromises they eventually entered into. My question to Musa is how did they let us down and what are those compromises they entered into that you do not want to mention? . .less by Silone on March 15 2010, 14:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

leadership and capitalism Carl Will, Samora and Che all have a valid point. The big private companies, esp. the mining types, have just exploited the situation. There has been a total lack of moral leadership from them (with the possible exception of De Beers). They play games . .more with black ratios, humour black communities, seldom challenge the entrenched racialism in places like Cullinan, Pretoria, etc. They move their liquid assets overseas, and screw their local suppliers and contractors. I would nationalise at least 30% of their equity and demand they pay proper taxes and energy rates, and dividends. That would take complete control away from them - adn i would not pay them a cent. When you look at what they have taken out, protected by a racialist regime, and the tiny, tiny, PR friendly bits they put back, then you will realise they deserve nothing. The big problem is that the politicians and civil servants now in power (and some of the black businesses) use the magnates as their models. Shame on them. Instead, come and look at companies like John Lewis in the UK. And John Austin, SA does have the biggest disparity between the rich and poor, and there will be revenge, as so far there is no justice. . .less by John Kalala on March 15 2010, 14:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Winnie was pressured into denouncing the interview @ Lwi, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Winnie was pressured into refuting the statement or allegations made on that interview - all in all it is an effort to preserve Mandela's good name and legacy as it were. If you had intuition, . .more you would have figured this out but then again you don't therefore I can't blame you . .less by Cyprian on March 15 2010, 14:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

There is a difference between Communism and Socialism The biggest problem that I have identified from some of the postings on this site is that there are more emotions than logic from respondents in fighting what the ANC/ SACP or COSATU stand for. These blugeoning idiots quickly jump into ill informed . .more conclusions about the motivating factors so as to explain as to why an author has written a particular article in defence of the Alliance. The other incorrect belief and assumption is that Communism and Socialism are the same economic systems whereas they are not. Both Capitalism and Communism are the extremes whilst Socialism is a happy meduim between the two extremes. Having read Musa Xulu's previous articles, he has stated categorically before that he is not a Communist but is instead a Socialist. He further qualified his statements by asserting that he, "doesn't have a problem with Capitalist as long as they do not become overbearing..." to quote him verbatim. So why, then are some trying to portray a wrong message about him? It is because when one argues against capitalism or the effect of capitalists, one is automatically labelled or stereotyped and/or boxed into a certain animal that everyone must be wary of. This is wrong because people must stick to the debate instead slanderring the author with all sorts of racial innuendo and it serves to confirm that they are racist . .less by true revolutionary on March 15 2010, 14:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

John Kalala What about financial institutions John? Mining houses partners in crime? by Samora on March 15 2010, 15:57 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Displacement, Bronwyn.... AAaahh Bronwyn, interesting theory of yours regarding the origin of the Nguni peoples. But it is incomplete. All blacks Africans (I exclude some "black Africans" like the San and Khoi from this definition, as well as certain other peoples in . .more the Sahel and North Africa), originated in the what is today the Cameroon/Nigeria. From there they spread West (and are ancestors of West Africans), and also South and South East. They reached, (partly as as the Ngunis, but also as other tribal groupings) some areas in Southern Africa perhaps 400 years ago, maybea bit longer. During this migration, they displaced the aboriginal Southern Africans (the San) in very much the same way that (white) settlers in Australia and North America displaced aboriginals in those continents. This story is hugely oversimplified, for example, genetic studies show Africans to be very diverse (eg Tutsi are the only peoples, other than Europeans, who are largely lactose tolerant, while Hutus are not, so they could not have shared common genetic ancestry over the last couple of thousand years to any significant degree). But the operative word above is "displace" as in "one people displaces another". This is how history evolves. Peoples rarely merge, they more often displace after conquest. Now who do you think will be displaced next? . .less by JVR on March 15 2010, 16:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Carl, Che and Samora are right. Justice must prevail. If not, revenge unfortunately will. by Steve Biko on March 15 2010, 16:23 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Che and Samora You are right. You ariticulate my sentiments fully. I could not have said it better. by Carl Wille on March 15 2010, 16:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

JVR You will be displaced JVR. But only if you are unable to overcome your insecurities and tribalism. Step out into the sunshine darling? by Che on March 15 2010, 16:36 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Before Jan van Riebeeck Listen racist fuckface - your tribe also came down from the north to rape the Khoi's land. As a coloniser stop feeling sorry for yourself when superior white forces beat you at war, i.e. Afrikaners & the British. by Henning Ludeke on March 15 2010, 16:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

John Kalala holding forth about bad big business and the mines : "I would nationalise at least 30% of their equity and demand they pay proper taxes and energy rates, and dividends. That would take complete control away from them - adn i would not pay them a cent. When you look at what they have taken out, protected by . .more a racialist regime, and the tiny, tiny, PR friendly bits they put back, then you will realise they deserve nothing." No harm I suppose in having flights of fancy in which you are the powerful ruler not tied down by the reality of economics, the law, and the Constitution, John. And when you've screwed big business and the mines John and output drops and profits dry up, and jobs are lost as businesses fold and there are no more profits to tax and your state coffers are on empty and the useless mindless masses are hungry what will you do then John? Distract their attention from how you screwed up by shouting for vengeance? You and Carl Wille make a fine pair John, lots of hot air and very little by way of any sense and analysis. But I don't begrudge you your dreams. . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 17:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

History as per archeologists @ JVR, hym! you too seem to have written or quoted your history selectively boet. The truth is that even the Khois and the Sans are not aboriginal in Southern Africa. In essence, the first people on earth being Africans, all came from the Equator and not . .more North as you claim. For the record, Southern Africa wasn't occupied until they were driven down by wars at which point they came to settle down South. Other tribes spread North and others migrated South for different reasons with others crossing the Red sea into Israel. So, the aboriginal from Israel are Black and not white, a fact which has recently been revealed by a Caucasian Israeli archeologist. You probably need to consult an archeologist in this regard if you don't believe me after which you will discover the truth as told by scientists as opposed to the historians and clergymen from the Bible who came with the settlers and thus distorted history in order to defend their looting and/or justify their evil agendas . .less by Isvan on March 15 2010, 18:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Cut the act @ Mpho, you are definitely White and now I am convinced of it plus you know it. So stop pretending to be Black unless this is just a pseudo name in which case I would understand otherwise you are not only being dishonest but you are undermining our . .more intelligence too. If you're Black, I challenge you to respond either in isiXhosa, isiZulu or sePedi or shiShangane etc. This challenge means that you must write a whole paragraph in an African language rather than an odd word or so that you got from a colleague at work or maid or gardener . .less by Bongs on March 15 2010, 18:19 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Simple minded It must be a double silly wham when the creepy and guilt ridden brigade also (usually) happens to be the opinionated type of 1st year students of sociology with their simple minded answers to complicated matters. by Injala Apera on March 15 2010, 19:07 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

"Dr" Mandela "Dr Mandela's response..." What's with the Dr. He's Mr. Mandela. by Jeff on March 15 2010, 19:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Carl, Che and Samora Looks like we have run into an upper class website. They do not appear to be interested in justice. Their denial and lack of critical introspection appears to prevent them from meaningful dialogue. The only option left, unfortunately, appears to be . .more revenge? I was hoping we could avoid this. . .less by Steve Biko on March 15 2010, 19:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Bongs and Mpho I know Mpho well. He is distinguished 50 something English speaking white South African man who served in the NAT government. He also masquerades as John the South African and Afrikaner Friend. I wish he would have the courage to reveal himself. by Che on March 15 2010, 19:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Bronwyn Stop bloody arguing about who was here first. Fact is only the white man has added anything of value to this Dark Continent. Most blacks are lazy, dumb f***kwits, including the numerous students that I know at all levels of education. SA is going nowhere . .more because blacks are too damn lazy to put in the effort needed to get themselves educated. They have study groups where it's the blind leading the blind at university level. When I try to help them, they just don't want to acknowledge that they have to work harder and think. It's easier to go back to the study group. There they can listen to their Ipods while they are "working". "I can tell from your writing style that you are not Black and this I judge from having reviewed many scripts from students." In other words you can tell that Charle Mabanga is white because he is literate, because the scripts I have seen from black students are mostly incomprehensible drivel, copied word for word from books or the internet and then assembled into gobbledygook. . .less by Jeff on March 15 2010, 20:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Steve Biko Your post reads : "Carl, Che and Samora are right. Justice must prevail. If not, revenge unfortunately will." The three persons you name are all BIG on revenge prevailing if "justice" does not. Che has proposed an . .more extensive and fantastic programme to achieve "justice", but it's a programme which is NOT to the ANC's liking, and under an ANC Government it will NEVER be done. So it seems to me we should all proceed to "revenge" forthwith, but in such a way that "justice" as set out by Che will prevail. The only party which can be trusted to undertake the programmes outlined by Che to achieve "justice" is the Democratic Alliance, and we should take revenge on the party under which injustice was allowed to prevail by voting them out of office, and putting the DA in power. They will call the Arms Deal thieves to account, break up the price-fixing cartels, and especially the Eskom - Chancellor House - ANC cartel. They will kick out the corrupt ANC cadres, and get the SETAs working to deliver trained manpower to the economy, establish a fund presided over by government and civil society to help establish and grow small and medium enterprise, the drivers of future wealth and growth; and more besides. So, on to sweet revenge in 2012 and 2014 when we'll vote out the corrupt ANC and vote in the DA . .less by mpho on March 15 2010, 20:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

musa So Mr Zulu, you are saying Mrs Winnie Mandela is a liar when she says she never gave the interview.? Why don't you give her your home address, so she can send some representatives to engage with you on that? by witbooi on March 15 2010, 21:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mpho. John in the closet. John why are you so scared of justice? What is so bad about justice? Anything to do with your past? With your friends? I agree with Samora's previous posting. I do not want revenge. I doubt whether Che, Samora and Steve want revenge either. It . .more should however be clear to all who want to see that if justice does not prevail, revenge ultimately and tragically will. There may possibly be a third way and that is meaningful dialogue between South Africans? I am not sure whether the likes of you are up to it though? I doubt whether the DA will fix the problem. I am still waiting for them to disclose their sources of funding, so that we all know who is pulling whose strings? I also doubt whether they will take care of the unfinished business of the TRC. Your worst nightmare? . .less by Carl Wille on March 15 2010, 22:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The South African Party How about we start a new party for people who want to deal meaningfully with our past so that we can move forward together as South Africans, and flourish? by Jan Smuts on March 15 2010, 22:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mandela Let Us Down! Period!!!!!!! I find it very funny how people gets so angry when someone starts a debate about Mandela. its not helping anyone to insult people and call them names just because they don't accept that Mandela is a Saint or a little god! Mandela led a team of negotiators . .more and the truth is that team was beaten hands down by the Apartheid Governement and thats the reason why White people whorsip him so much. if he achieved so much for blacks in those negotiation, whites were not going to like him so much because most of them don't like black people!!!!!!! He is just a coporate foundation that is making money for himself and his family, he never say anything when blacks are killed by farmers, suffer because of non-delivery of services, are treated to disrespect by his own party! to me Mandela is just a wel parkaged and wel marketed commodity for the bennefit of those close to him!!!!! . .less by Jobe on March 16 2010, 09:21 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mpho.John in the closet@CarlWille Whom do you imply to be "in the closet" - Mpho, John or both of them. Also, which John do you think "is scared of justice"? Is it John Kalala or John Austin (or some other John)? Also, is Mpho "scared of justice". On this "fear of . .more justice" theme of yours - please spell it out = FACTS. What exactly has anyone you point your "fear of" finger at scared of..... This is an open forum, so tell us. Sly innuendo makes not a point, but demonstrates a paucity of valid argument at best (and can imply threat at worst). Finally, be careful about steering debate into emotive bloody bottom lines. True justice through opaque honesty will always triumph over your often stated bottom line of revengeful tragedy. Do you use it as a wish or a threat? Human history tells us that the latter simply adds to the body count of collective human failure through dishonesty & deceit. I am not naive, however. I have first hand experience of how it all plays out in human affairs in our region. There is a proverb that guides us to be "gentle as a dove & cunning as a serpent". If you want to be taken seriously, then demonstrate it please. A Chikurubi Graduate :) . .less by John Austin, London on March 16 2010, 14:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mandela sold us out @ Jobe, well said futhi ngeke ngisayimosha ngokuthi nginezezele by Qhawe on March 16 2010, 14:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Fatc: Mandela is regarded as Dr @ Jeff, actually Madiba has several honourary doctorates which qualifies him be called Dr and not Mr, something that you don't have my friend or do you? by Bronwyn on March 16 2010, 14:41 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Now now Isvan, let us keep our hats on. Isvan - true I have oversimplified the story a bit. But the broad swipe is more or less accurate. The Nguni and Sothos etc, all black SAcans, except the San and the Khoi, are descendants of people who originated in The Cameroon/Nigeria. From their they . .more migrated, and collided with the Boers in the Eastern Cape in about 1750-1800. The Boers were migrating East, and they were migrating West. Of course, much happened over the years. Ruinous famines induced by Nonkwasi, the Mfekane, the fall-out of Vegkop and the migration of the Ndebele to Zimbabwe. A complex story, really. ...Ahem, ahem..... now for what you have to say, oh dear - perhaps some underlying flavour of conspiracy or Israel vision or even something else? . .less by JVR on March 16 2010, 21:27 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

What Winnie said she didn't say, I think ? Original article: "Mandela let us down" - Winnie. Earlier article: "Winnie Mandela is right" - Musa Xulu. This article: "I didn't give Ms Naipaul an interview" - Winnie Mandela. Reading collective postings on this . .more matter leaves one with the impression that everyone believes she did say to Ms Naipaul what was reported. Winnie's supporters seem not only unambiguously in agreement with the reported utterrings but, even after her categorical denial of them, they continue to strongly support most fiercely what she now says she didn't say ! Get your head around that lot, if you can..... it kinda sounds like Bill Clinton's infamous denial "I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman". World cup 2010 will have to work hard to outshine the political side shows at this rate. Chikurubi Kid :) . .less by John Austin, LONDON on March 16 2010, 21:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Smart a$$ John Austin, London @ John Austin, London - you little twit, you don't even know anything about the plight of Black SAns nor do you know anything about the ANC yet you want to tell those who do about it. This a typical white baas mentality of claiming to know it all when you . .more don't. This brings me to another point in that you are not even based in London yet you want us to believe that you are. That in my world is called dishonesty . .less by Alfred on March 17 2010, 11:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Alfred Smart A$$ It is hard to answer you when haven't written one "true" thing in your latest post. So, I will go to your closing untruthful summary "That in my world is called dishonesty". Well, I suppose such a bald summary of a load of lies & . .more ignorance might be thought valid in an upside down world. But you are totally wrong/misdirected, nevertheless ! How long have you been a paid-up member, or are you just visiting animal farm? Ciao, Tjikurubi Tjappie :) . .less by John Austin, London on March 17 2010, 13:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

MJ In 2002 martin Bashir published his interview with Michael jackson. As a result of the interview MJ was indicted as a child molester. In 2010 Nadira Naipaul interviewd Winnie Mandela and the published interview is denied by Winnie simply . .more because of its controversial statements attributed to Winnie. The moral of the story is: stay away from UK journalists particularly those of a certain .............. . .less by mandla on March 23 2010, 14:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

After reading this, I have realised I have waisted 20 minutes of my life All your comments just indicate some truths about SA. 1. All south Africans would die for status quo than the last bottle of water left on earth, why? because all these comments are not open minded and critically analyze, basically all of you write . .more hear because you all think you know better than the next person, hence the information passes by without any processing. I know I will get plenty of adolescent responses for this from adults who act like kids,so be it,and come on respond to prove what a child you are. 2. We call ourselves a rainbow nation but the reality is we just a bunch of 46-48 millions self-centered individuals posing as a nation who hold the same hope for the country. 3. BIAS. This is the order of the day in SA, everyone is biased, i.e.here is the mentality of each one of us in S.A. " as long as someone get kiss my A**, then they are my ally". This is proven by all the people who argue with the article and who call the author names...Did any of any just stopped for 1 second before grabbing your keyboards and also think it through thoroughly that actually there is two sides to every coin, like what if Mandela actually did F*** up this country from the get go, I mean People are so reluctant to lose presidency[bush,Mbeki,mugabe] why did he step down so quickly? Old age? NO, GUILT is more fitting, think b4 u type. . .less by kk on April 13 2010, 16:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Well written Nice article Msua, keep up with the good work by mxolisi on April 30 2010, 09:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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