Should we nationalise the mines? - Jeremy Cronin

In recent months, ANC Youth League president, cde Julius Malema has called for the nationalisation of the mines. The mainstream media have predictably latched onto cde Malema's nationalisation call with delight. They hope to ridicule the demand and goad senior ANC and government leaders into banishing any thought of nationalisation, once and for all, finish and klaar.

Cde Malema hasn't always helped his case with off-the-wall sound-bites. The impression of a policy being made on the hoof, individualistically, is re-inforced by the fact that we are yet to see any serious attempt at a collective policy document on this matter from the ANCYL.

This is a great pity. The question of the ownership and control of our major natural resources and means of production is, indeed, a serious matter. The idea of public ownership should not be reduced to an empty slogan. Nor is it, as some other comrades appear to believe, an embarrassing secret from a bygone era, best left hidden away in our family cupboard.

The people shall share in the country's wealth!

The basis for Malema's argument rests on the inspiring clause in the Freedom Charter: "The People Shall Share In The Country's Wealth!" It asserts that: "The national wealth of our country, the heritage of all South Africans, shall be restored to the people; The mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole..."

Some comrades have tried to argue against Malema on the grounds that the Freedom Charter nowhere actually uses the word "nationalisation". This is literally true, but frankly it's not a very convincing argument. As Malema himself puts it: "They are talking English, not politics." Anyone who has the remotest acquaintance with the mid-1950s, the period in which the Freedom Charter was formulated and adopted, would realise that it was the heyday of nationalisation - not just in post-war Eastern Europe and China, but also throughout most of Western Europe, Latin America, and newly de-colonised countries like India and Egypt. (It was also a period, by the way, in which the apartheid regime was consolidating an extensive state-owned sector). The framers of the Freedom Charter were almost certainly thinking of some kind of nationalisation as a MEANS to ensuring ownership by "the people as a whole".

The people (not the government) shall govern!

But if it is misleading to de-contextualise the Charter from its history, it is also misleading to de-contextualise some sentences in the Charter from the Charter's overall thrust. In particular, it is critical to connect all other clauses of the Freedom Charter to the very first clause: "The People Shall Govern!" This first clause is very instructive when we consider the subsequent economic clause. The people shall govern clause refers to four inter-related dimensions of popular democracy:

• electoral democracy, the right of all to vote (and to stand for election);
• administrative democracy - the democratisation of the state apparatus;
• constitutional democracy - equal rights for all, "regardless of race, colour or sex"; and
• (absolutely central to everything else) participatory democracy through the consolidation of organs of popular power - or what the Freedom Charter refers to as "democratic organs of self-government".

Note, the Freedom Charter doesn't say: "The government shall govern". It says: "The PEOPLE shall govern". Of course, both a progressive government and a progressive ruling party (or parties) are important, but they are means (not ends) to the popular democracy envisaged in the Charter.

Which is why, when the Freedom Charter speaks of transferring the commanding heights of the economy to the ownership of the people as a whole, it is not confining itself to what is often just a narrow bureaucratic take-over by the state apparatus and a ruling party's "deployees". And this is why the SACP also prefers in general to refer to "socialisation" rather than "nationalisation".

State ownership is a legal form, but the mere fact of state-ownership doesn't tell us what kind of state we are dealing with. Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussolini's fascist Italy, and Verwoerd's apartheid South Africa all had extensive state ownership of key sectors of the economy.

So much for background. But what are the actual merits of calling for the nationalisation of the mines in SA in the year 2009?

The mineral wealth beneath the soil...but what about the fat cats sitting on top of the soil?

Many comrades have responded to Malema by arguing that the "Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act" (2002) has already implemented the Charter's call for "the mineral wealth beneath the soil" to be "transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole." Indeed, this important and progressive legislation explicitly states that "South Africa's mineral and petroleum resources belong to the nation and that the State is the custodian thereof." In terms of this Act, private (or public) entities can be given a right to mine by government, but this right may not exceed 30 years. In other words, it is the "nation" (with the state as custodian) and not the mining companies that have legal ownership of the mineral resources beneath our soil.

This legislation (along with attempts to consolidate existing state holdings in the mining sector into a state-owned mining house) provide us with greater strategic leverage over the sector than we had before.

But clearly it cannot just be a case of what lies beneath the soil. What about all of those massive mining corporate entities sitting on TOP of our soil (many of them now with principal listings and mining operations off-shore)? Are they not among the monopoly industries the Freedom Charter had in mind?

Legal ownership...but what about strategic control?

This brings us to the next important distinction that we need to make. Legal ownership is only one part of the story. There is also the critical matter of effective strategic control over resources and over the production, beneficiation, logistics, marketing and investment processes inevitably linked to such control.

In this regard, cde Malema (and other Youth Leaguers) have argued that if we nationalise the mines we will be able to ensure that we beneficiate rather than simply being a primary commodity exporter. Here they are touching on something that is profoundly important. Even after 1994 we have continued to be locked into the same century-long, semi-colonial growth path that reproduces racialised inequality and underdevelopment. It is a growth path in which SA serves as a semi-peripheral exporter largely of primary commodities within the global capitalist market. It is a role that exposes us to many vulnerabilities, as witnessed in the current global meltdown, and it creates severe distortions in our domestic economy and society.

The beneficiation story

But while touching on this matter in passing, cde Malema is not able to carry his argument forward in a systematic way. In the first place, it is important to note that in some respects SA is already involved in very considerable mineral beneficiation. Eskom turns a significant proportion of our coal production into electricity. SASOL's global leading-edge technology beneficiates coal into oil and other petro-chemical by-products. SASOL, in fact, provides for some 35% of all our domestic petrol needs. Our coal into energy is also further (and problematically) beneficiated into aluminium at two major smelter plants at Richards Bay. Some of our iron-ore is beneficiated into steel by major corporations, including the former Iscor and now privatised multi-national Arcelor Mittal.

In these cases, the problem is not the lack of beneficiation but the kind of beneficiation. In the case of aluminium smelter plants, for instance, they are huge electricity gobblers, and the bauxite used for the production of aluminium is not even mined here, but shipped over from Australia. Basically, the aluminium transnational corporations came here to plug into our cheap electricity grid (and they have been given twenty-year electricity deals, way below what we pay for our own electricity). We are literally exporting at a loss South African electricity congealed into aluminium bars at a time when we are facing major electricity shortages. Our coal-fired power stations are major carbon emitters and consumers of increasingly scarce water resources. These pose grave challenges of sustainability for us as a country. The pricing of beneficiated products on our local market is also a major problem - steel producers are under investigation for price collusion, and SASOL is notorious for undermining local downstream producers (and therefore job creation) with its price distorting monopoly behaviour.

Once we unpack the mineral beneficiation story in this way, we start to uncover the many systemic realities in our economy that lock us into a semi-colonial status within the world economy. It is these (and other) systemic realities that continue to reproduce crisis levels of unemployment and racial inequality. And it is these systemic realities, therefore, that need transformation, and they go to the heart of the possibility and necessity of a patriotic, multi-class, democratic and, yes cde Malema, even non-racial struggle to transform our country. It is a struggle that, of course, will be driven by the workers and poor, and by the aspirations and capacities of the black majority. In other words, this is the heart of today's national democratic struggle.

An analysis of the systemic realities that are reproducing under-development in our country, must surely lead us to call for greater use of renewable energy sources, for the phasing out of aluminium smelters, and for the re-nationalisation of SASOL. But it is not clear how the extensive nationalisation of the mines would contribute at this point to the transformation of our perverted accumulation path. In fact, if the state actually owned extensive coal mining interests, for instance, we might be tempted to avoid looking at renewable energy sources in the name of keeping some ailing state-owned Coalkom profitable for the share-holder.

Beneficiation or bling?

I suspect that cde Malema and others are missing this bigger systemic picture because when they speak of mineral beneficiation they are thinking of bling...sorry, jewellery. There are, indeed, various initiatives to promote the local jewellery sector and these initiatives should certainly be supported.

But the idea that SA will grow into a major jewellery power-house to rival centuries-old artisanal traditions (and markets) in India or Amsterdam, simply because some of the precious minerals happen to be mined here, is, I am sad to say, a pipe-dream.

Besides, it is not clear why nationalising a diamond mine will, for instance, necessarily give us a better competitive edge in the jewellery market.

Nationalisation or capitalist friendly bale-out?

There are further issues that require closer analysis. Some of us have already cautioned that nationalising mining houses in the current global and national recession might have the unintended consequence of simply baling out indebted private capital, especially BEE mining interests. At the beginning of this year, government estimated that some 80% of BEE deals were "under the water" as a result of the global recession. BEE mining shares were particularly hard hit as a result of the sharp fall in commodity prices on the world market. And while there has been something of a recovery for some commodities, the robustness of the recovery remains very uncertain.

But many (not all) of our mining sectors are also faltering because of other factors besides the recession. Electricity is estimated to be between 10% and 15% of mining operation costs. Cheap electricity and the way the grid has been historically structured in SA has had much to do with the dominance of mining monopolies in our economy. With impending, multi-year electricity price hikes, even if Eskom doesn't (and it musn't) get anything like its 45% hike, the viability of many of our mines will be severely impacted.

Then there is the sobering fact that mining is about non-renewable natural resources. Many of our gold mines in particular are increasingly depleted and unviable. Some reach costly depths of four kilometres below the surface. Recently the global gold price has bounced back, but it is telling that, unlike in the past, our gold output actually dropped by some 9% in the same period. Our gold mines are simply no longer able to respond dynamically to gold price rises.

What about expropriation without compensation?

The argument that nationalising the mines might unintentionally serve to bale out failing capitalists assumes, of course, that nationalising the mines would involve significant monetary compensation. So what about straightforward expropriation without compensation? Contrary to what is often asserted, the Property Clause in the Bill of Rights actually sanctions expropriation "for a public purpose or in the public interest". But the Bill of Rights still requires the payment of compensation for expropriation, at a price either agreed to by both parties or determined by a court.

Again, contrary to what is often said, this compensation does not have to be narrowly market-based. The Bill of Rights lists other realities that should also be factored in, including "the history of the acquisition and use of the property" and "the extent of direct state investment and subsidy in the acquisition ...of the property."

Speaking as a Marxist (not a constitutional lawyer), I think an excellent case could be made that the new democratic state, acting on behalf of the people of SA, owes the mining houses absolutely nothing. The "history of the acquisition and use of their property" includes genocidal wars of dispossession that carved out labour reserves for the mines, and the massive deployment of state violence in the Anglo-Boer War that was directed at securing an imperial grip on SA's gold-fields. The "history of the use of their property" includes hundreds of thousands of mine-worker deaths and injuries, and the wholesale destruction of the environment including the pollution of our ground-water. The extent of "direct state investment and subsidy" includes using billions of rands of public money on the building of rail-lines and ports, electricity power-stations and an infrastructure grid to serve the mining houses' narrow profit-maximising interests. It is the mining corporations that owe the people of SA trillions of rands in compensation, not the other way round.

But would the Constitutional Court see things in this way?

However, before we get too tangled up in legal arguments, and spend millions of rands on legal counsel, let's go back to the core issue. How, if at all, would the extensive nationalisation of the mines advance the national democratic struggle in 2009?

It would land the state with the burden of managing down many mining sectors in decline. It would further burden the state with the responsibility for dealing with the massive (and historically ignored) cost of "externalities" - the grievous destruction that a century of robber-baron mining has inflicted on our environment. In the current conjuncture, nationalising the mining sector at this point would also probably unintentionally bale-out private capital, in a sector that is facing many challenges of sustainability. The problems of liquidity and indebtedness for BEE mining share-holders are particularly acute.

Moreover, extensive state ownership of the mining sector would on its own not change any of the underlying systemic problems in our broader economy. And unless it was part of a much more fundamental transformation of our current accumulation path, it would also not change the semi-peripheral status of SA in the global economy - it might even worsen this status. In all probability it would also result in the state having to fork out billions of rands in compensation at a time when we have other key priorities that, precisely, have a better chance of contributing to a fundamental transformation of our current problematic accumulation trajectory.

Forward to the realisation of the Freedom Charter's ideals!

Our scepticism about the value at this point of extensive state nationalisation of the mines must, however, absolutely not be misunderstood to be a scepticism about the clarion call in the Freedom Charter for the wealth of our country to become COMMON wealth, the property of ALL South Africans. But how do we move towards the realisation of that goal? The SACP's Central Committee discussion document for our Special National Congress, ("Building Working Class Hegemony on the Terrain of a National Democratic Struggle") attempts to answer precisely that question (see here). We invite cde Malema and anyone else who is passionate about fundamental transformation to engage us in the debate.

Jeremy Cronin is deputy general secretary of the South African Communist Party. This article first appeared in the Party's online journal, Umsebenzi Online, November 18 2009

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responses to this article

eish! Karl Marx once intimated that economic circumstances are primarily a driving force behind interaction between the working class and proprietors. It is in this context that I have decided to understand Cronin's piece. On a different aspect, the sense that . .more I get after reading this article is that the Freedom Charter is not what I have known it to be. I can just imagine the extent to which the ordinary members of the tripartite alliance are confused by this. . .less by King Zwakala on November 18 2009, 17:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

equal rights for all, "regardless of race, colour or sex"; When do we get equal rights when BEE/AA is allowed to exist? by I like this bit on November 18 2009, 21:00 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

yep DO IT NOW , GET IT OVER WITH , THEN SEE DISINVESTMENT FROM RSA BIG TIME . DONT TALK DO IT , SEE WHAT HAPPENS YOU DUMB P HUKS . by cHUCKY on November 18 2009, 21:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

lost our soul I really can not believe in the year 2009 people actually still hold these beliefs, it is really sad. We only have to look at the failed SAA's, Eskom, transnet, state of health, policing, government dept failed audit reports, lack of public sector . .more accountability...... all under Government's responsibility and people want to give them more to control? Is sorry to say the mr joe average taxpayer is paying for all of this as well and if they didn't have to finance those issues could have put money into real social development and capital investment for expansion of business..... lost jobs and opportunity. The only model and way forward is to follow the Asian tigers model of the 80's, they turned around in 10 years, we 15 years on and not moving forward at all. . .less by Thomas on November 19 2009, 06:55 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Rational Analysis For once, SACP is correct. Jeremy, congratulations. Its the bottom line that is important too, not politics only. Parastatals vacuum tax money. by old, female on November 19 2009, 07:32 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Economic illiterates Which planet do you communists live on? You still dream about your socialist utopia. To begin with I suggest you face the electorate as SACP and we will see how many people really support you. Why do you cling to the ANC if you really are a political party by Jedza on November 19 2009, 07:40 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

FOSATU's Programme from 1970s Better! Well, in the original FOSATU programme, far more 'socialist' than COSATU's Populist Freedom Charter rant/chant, it stated that the: "Means of Production, Distribution should be Socialized, Under Worker's Control!" - not under the union mind you, . .more but by the 'direct producers' themselves! Give THAT a thought Oh Admiral's Son and Other SACP hacks! . .less by Dr Selim Y Gool on November 19 2009, 08:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Gibberish! So who cares what the The Freedom Charter says? It is totally outdated in a modern world. by Molly on November 19 2009, 08:09 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Without mineral extraction there is no mineral wealth. What is been underestimated is the cost and the effort required to realise mineral wealth. Mineral wealth in a vacuum is of no benefit at all. The mineral wealth has to be exploited for it to have value. The states role is to issue mineral licences, . .more ensure that mining is regulated (is safe, living wages are paid and workers are not exploited), ensure that taxes are paid on profits and ensure that the environment is not damaged as a result of the mining process. The state and hence the "people" benefit from the mineral wealth through revenues earned via the issue of licences and the receipt of taxes. It is disingenuous to argue that: as I own a piece of land on which a 30 story block of flats could be built housing 1000 families each paying R2000 per month rent that as the land owner I am entitled to the full R24m per annum income without building the block of flats. . .less by Paterfamilias on November 19 2009, 08:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Jeremy Cronin and Julius Malema: recording of their meeting on the Nationalisation of mines: Julius: bla...bla...twiet...twiet...begghooo...boggom... boggom, Jeremy: twiet...bark...whoof...woof...bark...bark... Julius: Yebbo...beggghooooo...boggom... woof oof ...miaaaaaauw ...woof...beggghooooo. ...boggom.. Jeremy: . .more woof....eish....yebbo... Julius: eish...hauw... we mast tyk ewerytfieng, dies fat cats haf too much.... Jeremy: Yebbo, we mast nationalise biekoz kommienizim ies a proewin fylure bat whie nied to be tlewwir and enriench ourselfs... Julius: Yebbo Komrid aai want a masiedies benz, aai haf no fanksjinieng bryn to whirk to myk maaiself rich, now aai use the poor and brywash them toe sapport maai triek and aai can biekam rich...Jeremy: Woof...woof aai agrie...Julius: Boggom...boggom...beghhhhoooooooo aai laff dies triek. . .less by whataphoeziscommunism on November 19 2009, 08:45 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

get real didn't get through entire article but i guess its trying to justify nationalisation of mines etc.. the airline industry is a prime example of this deluded idea- comair and 1time are able to run profitably yet SAA is year after year a sinking ship (plane) . .more draining the tax payer. Now you want to nationalise mines. Nationalised mines will be run by political appointees that have no idea, over employ, over pay and run at a loss that is again subsidised by tax payers. Soon we'll have a "keep the mines going tax" on top of the "keep SABC going tax". . .less by JJ on November 19 2009, 08:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Jeremy Crony The wealth does not "belong" to the people : Those who get off their backsides (as opposed to sitting on their Blackhides)and work to produce the wealth , deserve the bigger share .The rest benefit through employment etc. Communist . .more Claptrap. Cadre Jerry needs to go to a reeducation camp. . .less by George on November 19 2009, 08:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Marxist dishonesty Marxists are good at dishonest rabble-rousing distortion. The following statement from Cronin's essay is a case in point : "Speaking as a Marxist (not a constitutional lawyer), I think an excellent case could be made that the new democratic . .more state, acting on behalf of the people of SA, owes the mining houses absolutely nothing." The fact of the matter is that South Africa's economic preeminence in Africa was founded on the mining industry which spawned many other secondary industries, and powered the industrial and economic growth of the country. The mining industry was not all about exploitation, as Marxists dishonestly contend. Admittedly investors demanded a return on their investments, but in the process benefited the citizenry at large with well-paid jobs, and the country with taxes on wages and profits which enabled further development of the country. To pretend, as Cronin's rhetoric does, that the "mining houses" are impersonal entities which have had their full share of rewards and can now justifiably simply be deprived of their property, is disingenuous to say the least. The mining houses need constant reinvestment which is provided by investors, called shareholders. These investors, millions of them, paid for their shares (unlike the BEE parasites!) and are entitled to their share of the property they paid for. . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 09:01 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Insanity come in many forms Get real. Get out of cuckoo land. When the minister of police buys jets at R150 million (for what) then you can't let more assets get into the hands of such people. The tax base will fall if the mines rot away (as everything else . .more has rotten away). And in any event there is only enough gold for another 10-15 years. Get the lazy nation to work. 50 million people are being supported buy some 400 000. . .less by Thabo on November 19 2009, 09:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

No investment ..no jobs! No mention of the inpact on future of overseas investment, or of the historical failure of state controlled industries worldwide....jobs and especially new jobs come from investment from everywhere..............it is all verbal vote catching . .more nonsense! . .less by Fred on November 19 2009, 09:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Marxist dishonesty, continued A significant proportion of the mining industry is owned privately by South African citizens, and also by millions of other South African citizens through their pension funds. It is from these citizens Cronin suggests 'the new democratic State' could . .more justifiably steal from. The dishonest Marxist also speaks glibly of how the State subsidized and paid for this that and the other, as if the State deployed its own resources for the benefit of the capitalists. The fact of the matter is that the State produces nothing; all the funds it spent were earned by and collected as taxes from the very people Cronin now suggests the State is justified in stealing from. The Marxist mindset dishonestly distorts reality for its own purpose, which usually is the concentration of power and patronage in the hands of the Party for the benefit of the Party elite, all the while exploiting the citizenry and keeping them poor through suboptimal economic policies. Communism is justifiably unwelcome in the modern world, and is an anachronism South Africa would be wise to eschew. . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 09:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

sanctimonious cr@p and the future use of these properties will incurr even more deaths once nationalised...a dangerous business mining is...can you imagine how the government would stuff this one up. That being said, if only "The People could Share In The Country's . .more Wealth!". The wealth being garnered though our tax systems (and expropriated through BEE), is pissed away in front of our very eyes in the most flagrant, disregarding manner imaginable.....but dare to object, and you will forever be damned a racist. The ANC was never serious about living upto the values in the Freedom Charter...PERIOD!!! . .less by Reaper on November 19 2009, 09:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Huh? "The mining industry was not all about exploitation, as Marxists dishonestly contend." This type of gibberish/gobbledegook comes from the South African internetting illeraterari mostly, Caucasian too mostly (although I wonder at the black/brown . .more 'new recruits' to the DA stable/table, but your ignorance and your prevarications, noncense and pure rubbish cannot go unansweded. So .... I actually wrote a major work on the mining industry for my Ph.D. thesis: 'Mining Capital and Black Labour in the Early Industrial Period in Soth Africa - a critique of the new historiography', Lund Univ., Sweden, 1983, where I review all ther current works (then) on the subject and subject these to a critical analytical microscope. Read soemthing good for Christmas dumb-A** and learn something and stop uttering your pure gibberish like some white parrot (a Caucasian Malema?). Order online now! . .less by Dr Selim Y Gool on November 19 2009, 10:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Sold Out Cronin's piece exposes critical points and also confirms that the Kempton Park agreement sold us out. The only way out is to amend the constitution and do away with the propetry clause (S25 of the Constitution). With their 2 third majority the ruling . .more party could have done this. . .less by Moses Gayiya on November 19 2009, 10:27 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Living Life, just fine, Proudly South African Ladies & Gentlemen, i notice a lot of anger and hatret from a lot of respondants to this article, as iv noticed to many articles in the past on Money Web. Why are you people so angry? Life needs to be liked to be enjoyed, i bet most of your have heart . .more problems or strokes of one form or another. Do what you are good at, do not insult you good people, its not good for your health. Govts all over the world have spectacular failures in many ambitiopus ideas, and too many success stories against all ords. let go of this anger peopole of god, I am a millionare today coz i live positively, at 32, i dont fight or redicule orther peoples ideas! Lets embrace this land and love one another. i employ some 12 peope and provide some bursaries, I am no BEE/AA, little assistance that govement gives i take with both hands. Do the same, you will propsper. there wil always be ideas flown around, listean and be calm. . .less by Mampara on November 19 2009, 10:45 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Misquoting by Jeremy Cde Crony has elevated the Freedom Charter, drafted by a communist, to the level of the Constitution or holy writ. It is neither - unholy S***, more like - but studiously ignores all the clauses about non-discrimination over-ruled by AA & . .more BEE. Jerry-baby, if you must quote Marx, think: History repeats itself - "the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce". Must you prove him right? Then what about the mineral wealth only being realised by labour, including the mining houses and skilled engineers? Yes, Stalinists and Hitlerites use populism effectively, but then, why publish in MW? . .less by Karl Marx on November 19 2009, 10:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Reaper You're right. There were a few honest, well-intentioned and reputable souls in the ANC, but these are all gone now and there's no more cream left to rise to the top, just the-you-know-what, as is now too painfully obvious. Hopefully the . .more electorate will wake up and get rid of these thieving scoundrels and wastrels, but the majority are so steeped in racism I have my doubts about that. . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 11:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

First things First! The ANC and its buddies must first make something work! Everything they touched so far is a mess. -aids,educatation,Eskom,Transnet,Municipalities,housing etc.etc. Even BEE only favours a few. The only people that made things work is Manuel and Pravin . .more Gordhan. The rest is just enriching themselves and starving the poor.! . .less by PJ on November 19 2009, 11:14 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Crepuscular Cronin "This is a great pity. The question of the ownership and control of our major natural resources and means of production is, indeed, a serious matter." Exactly. So serious in fact that it should not left to the kind of clowns who populate . .more Cronin's little world. Warning for Mr cronin... Be careful what you say about Julius. Remember how you had to crawl on knees dressed in sack cloth and ashes when you upset our mad monk rasputin?? You showed real strength of character then. You will do the same again when Malema ticks you off. Little rat . .less by Plutarch on November 19 2009, 11:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I am wondering... Cronin talks about the ( paraphrased) colonial responsibility for: 1/. "hundreds of thousands of deaths due to mine accidents 2/. pollution of ground water. Does the man really believe that under state control all the accidents and . .more problems will go away? is this man entirely cretinous? Hell man, this bunch of atavistic zombies cannot keep traffic lights working nor can it cut the grass on Municipal pavements yet Cronin thinks it can run the incredibly difficult job of mining? Er, if eskom, SABC, SAA, DENEL,are pointers to a likely scenario my reaction, as a miner to control by the state would be to learn a new, less dangerous occupation. What is it about these merchants of catastrophe that makes them think they can do anything more than squat in the sun and scratch their balls? . .less by Cassandra on November 19 2009, 11:44 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

nationalisation of mines IT is nice to get involved in inheriting SPACE for the HUMAN RACE .HOW about Mr Crony helping us solve the STATE CORPORATIONS that have depleted the national coffers problems.THE masses in this country will forever not be promised HEAVEN when they worship . .more you and all.When the ANC questioned you regarding NATIONALISATION you walked out complaining the ANC IS LIKE ZANU -PF .THIS IS A MATTER FOR THE ANC TO DECIDE AND NOT THE SACP .If the SACP under CRONY wants to NATIONALISE MINES in this country why not stand as a political party and shape up your manifesto in line and campaign accordingly.JEREMY CRONY DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE ANC OR THE GOVERNMENT OF ANC.PLEASE DONT EVER CREATE THAT IMPRESSION.COME THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION the people of SOUTH AFRICA WANTS TO SEE THE SACP AS A POLITICAL PARTY AND STOP WAFFLING . . .less by joe on November 19 2009, 11:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

One or two screens and I might read it next time Jeremy I was very interested in what YOU had to say. Although I disagree with your politics and your economics I have always found you to be fair reasonable, and to put forward good points. So your contribution to the debate was . .more welcome. But the mini-book you wrote? No thanks. . .less by Al on November 19 2009, 11:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

As always this is becoming a racist debate again Every article on this site comes with racist comments afterwards. Whites feel the blacks are useless, corrupt and have no sense of proper governance. The blacks feel that the whites miss apartheid, hate all that is black and still feel as if . .more they are superior to all other races. I guess, both sides do have a point. Lets try and chat about the subject and not a persons race. Now on this talk of nationalisation. Now Mr. Cronin, do you really believe that the government would run the mines better? Even after numerous cases of failure on the governments part. Will the mines really belong to the people or some comrade with no experience of running any business successfully? Your honest answers to these questions can never in a million years make any sane person believe that nationalisation is a good thing in SA. In the end, we the good tax abiding citizens will end up paying for the government mess. PLEASE DONT GIVE THE GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF ANY OF OUR RESOURCES!!! . .less by The Patriot on November 19 2009, 12:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I wonder... how many of the people responding here actually read and comprehended Cronin's article. by Jean Racine on November 19 2009, 12:22 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

State is the problem For so long as the state is in its current form and structure, you won't succeed in what you claim to be your historic mission, Marx talked about the "withering away of the state" meanig a total change, including a replacement of the current configuration . .more of the state. . .less by Katze on November 19 2009, 12:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ I wonder Agreed. While I do not agree with Mr Cronins' opinions, the article is very coherent and, almost, persuasive. My question to him: But will it work in Africa? by Swazi on November 19 2009, 13:01 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Racine I was wondering the same thing. by Domza on November 19 2009, 13:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Address Unknown! "Drainpipelayer Certificate" Well Andy Capp, if you send me your valid current address I will sen some of my "boys" over with it! Have a Good Day, while it lasts ..... by Dr Cool on November 19 2009, 13:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Swazi have you forgotten Alec Erwin The reason why it has never worked and will never work is because politicians are appointed through cronyism all over the world and not on merit. An example of this is Cde Alec Erwin and his handling of the Eskom debacle. Durbans own . .more committed Marxist Mike Sutcliffe has run what was one of the most solvent cities in the world into a basket case because it has attracted loads and loads of freeloaders who dont contribute to the rates base at all. . .less by Mike on November 19 2009, 13:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

History will jurge us South Africa may be the last state to get fredom but that not neccesary mean we may also foll in the same triger that catch africa and the rest of world that were failer of communism or nationalisation .But we are lucky to learn in their mistake not to . .more repeat what they did also having our own thems of refering 1.Eskom 2.Transnet and so on were we fulltime managing see how did we fail .We lack managerial skill whali we have the pation for transformation how do you combine the two it si true that sectors such as mining fail us badly indeed we have to have a way how to moniter them corse in every corner we have corned them at the end of the day they must be held accontable .Who then, the state and its failing how it run mines failing to held mines accontable to they promises when appliying for the rigths to mined let us be sober give relavant attention it required . .less by obedient on November 19 2009, 14:55 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@GOOL THE FOOL Your PhD from Sweden is not worth much - they handed these out for free to anti-apartheid goons living there in exile like paracites. We really are not interested in reading your garbage so stop trying to punt it here on MW. Go pay for advertising . .more elsewhere. . .less by SP on November 19 2009, 14:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Dr Selim Y Gool Who purports to have written a "major" work on the mining industry for his PhD (third world candidate, nudge,nudge, wink wink, say no more!) thesis. Well if your thesis is as bad as your manners are it's probably a dumb A** piece of work by a . .more third world candidate tolerated by the long-suffering Swedes. I've seen theses like that in my time and I have no interest in looking at more such substandard bullshit. It is plain that the infrastructure and industrial development of South Africa did not come about through the social efforts and meagre resources of indigenous South Africans, nor did it come out of thin air, and nowhere else in Africa did we see the kind of economic expansion that took place here. So in spite of what you did with your so-called "critical analytical microscope" you're still sprouting bullshit. Your advice : "Read something good for Christmas dumb-A** and learn something" is best directed at yourself; in your case I would recommend something which would teach you some manners; difficult and seemingly impossible as that may be. . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 15:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Dr Selim Y Gool I wrote : "The mining industry was not all about exploitation, as Marxists dishonestly contend." In response to this you opined : "This type of gibberish/gobbledegook comes from the South African internetting illeraterari mostly, Caucasian too . .more mostly (although I wonder at the black/brown . .more 'new recruits' to the DA stable/table, but your ignorance and your prevarications, noncense and pure rubbish cannot go unansweded." Presumably then, the mining industry was all about "exploitation"? Surely only an imbecile (such as yourself?) would come to such a conclusion! What amuses me is how you push yourself as Dr. In my experience it is usually the weaker PhDs who flaunt their little title for all and sundry to take note of because their inferiority complexes require their egos to be constantly boosted. Reading your gibberish above, I wonder if you really know what "prevarivations" means; probably not, you don't even know how to spell "nonsense". Reminds me of what a colleague of mine once said at the graduation of one of his PhD students : "Even the illiterates are getting PhDs nowadays. . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 15:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Discredit I'm amazed at the short-sighted negativity of most of these comments. Cronin is, as a member of the communist party, arguing from a Marxist perspective. However he has taken the time and made the effort to put together a well thought-out and nuanced . .more perspective on nationalization that does something most current government policies get badly wrong - looks at the bigger, longer term picture rather than just addressing short-term issues with populist sound bites. Coming from a more capitalist perspective I disagree with some of his assertions, but I think he has made a worthwhile addition to the debate on nationalization. Fundamentally I think South Africa needs to address State incompetence in order to better provide the building blocks for future prosperity, rather than giving the currently incompetent state access to more resources. . .less by Nihilism on November 19 2009, 16:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

WTF doe strategic leaverage maen anyway? youre like a dog that's wanting to catch a truck, what the hell are you going to do with it once you catch it? What Hu?!? by Grid on November 19 2009, 17:23 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Ubermensch Us capitalists must stand together and fight these commies. by Nietzsche on November 19 2009, 17:27 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Nihilism You're right of course, but this kind of debate is as old as the hills, and follows on many examples worldwide of the failure of nationalisation to deliver what it promises. As you point out, the SA State is incompetent in the running of the few . .more important industries which are nationalised (Eskom, SAA, SABC, Denel, Transnet etc.) and the nationalisation of other functioning industries is just too ghastly to contemplate. What's the point of one (Cronin) inviting a debate on nationalisation if we know that in reality implementation of nationalisation will result in one helluva C***-up? . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 17:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Miken and SP I take offense to your point and its innuando. I own holiday property in Dbn and pay my rates, please clarify your point. Instead of seeking to insult us tell us what Sutcliffe is doing wrong and how you would do it differently. @SP how would . .more you rate Phds from OFSU, Potchefstroom, Rau and Stellenbosch which many Boere professors posses? I once worked for the company where a Financial Manager (qualified CA) struggled to present his work in English obviously he was Afrikaans. There was nothing wrong with his work just English was a problem. That left me wondering whether a Xhosa who could not speak English would have been given that opportunity let alone get CA. On the issues raised by Cronin he is quite right we can not build the future without correcting the past imbalances. The question is how do we find the balances act in this thing. Whites are selfishly unhappy with everything is this country whilst blacks are loosing patience with promises that are not coming to fruition. Something will go wrong in this country and it wont be long unless we work together. There is a big role to be played by white people in the solution but it has to start with them seeing themselves as part of the solution not a unique component without which nothing would work because that is arrogant ans stalls the pace of transformation . .less by Gambu on November 19 2009, 18:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

My My MY .... how are ther fleas doin? Hi there fans, been busy you know, and saw some choise "frothing at_the_mouth" titbits to remark on to the more bigoted, ignorant and uneducated (Oh and 'unlettered/schooled' bloggers/blockheads) who do not even know how to use a simple search engine! . .more Shame on you guys! And you all have scondary education also, care of the White Welfare State, ne! So this is the score: Dr Cool 5 - Right Behind Opposition 0 Why you may ask as your blood-pressure boils as the rabid hound howl? Well go to: http://www.research2003.uct.ac.za/generic.php?m=/humanities/depts/cas/staff.php http://www.ekh.lu.se/research/publ/publ_diss.asp Lund University: Department of Economic History Author: Gool, Selim Y. Titel: Mining Capitalism and Black Labour in the Early Industrial Period in South Africa - A Critique of the New Historiography. Economic History Society, Vol. : XL Then try: UCT Research Fields & Staff Dr Selim Gool Biographer/Researcher: Biographical research into the Abdurahman and Gool Families of Cape Town. Entitled: "Continuities and Discontinuities www.research2003.uct.ac.za/humanities/depts/cas/staff.php Finally go to: http://www.facebook.com/selcool For a fun education, free! . .less by Dr Selim Y Gool on November 19 2009, 18:49 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Nationalisation of Mines Good ol' commrad Geremy has hit the nail on the head with one comment about bailing out BBE mining companies! I'm sure comrade julius' cronies are wondering where the next payment on the wheels is coming from. Brett Kebble where art thou? I worked in a . .more nationalized mining industry in the U,K, the N.C.B. Even when I joined 40 years ago they employed a quarter of a million people ! To- day - NIL ! In the world economy the exploitive extraction industry moves on when the going gets too tough. Since when was a socialist/ communist a nationalist? The Nazis! Why does organised "African" labour have to import the tired old leftist Euorpean laguage of "comrade " "cadre" ad nauseum ? Unfortunately the answer is a global solution , otherwise stay out of things you don't know about and milk as much as the beast can stand. . .less by Ian McGill on November 19 2009, 20:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Mr Gool Yech! I won't be going to any of those sites; there are better things to look for on the Web. You're just a puffed up, presumptuous, stupid show-off. Having a PhD may mean that you are learned, but not necessarily intelligent or even properly . .more educated. So sod off! . .less by flebus on November 19 2009, 20:14 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Shame ---- SHAME ON YOU OLD SOD .... IS BUGGERY YOUR THING THEN? by selcool on November 19 2009, 21:08 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Gool losing his Cool The more you try and tell us what a hotshot you are the worse it gets for you. Nobody likes a boasting self promoter. by Andy on November 20 2009, 07:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@selcool Linking the injunction : "Sod off" with buggery makes for two possibilities either a) you're an anally retentive pervert or b) you're just plain ignorant. by flebus on November 20 2009, 08:03 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Nationalise eveything That Tokyo, Cyril and Patric have already taken. That should feed the 46 Million that are currently being sponsored by 2 Million. It will lift a serious burden off of the Tax payer. by Fred on November 20 2009, 09:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Gambu I went to school with Sutcliffe at toti so I know him well. Try explaining why Durban's rates are now twice that of anywhere else in the country. Long time peacefull areas such as Athlone Park next to toti have witmessed horrific murders and gang rapes . .more particulary of a mother in front of her daughter and Comrade Mike still refuses to allow residents to boom off their areas. . .less by Mike on November 20 2009, 14:30 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Old charters They cling to all of these outdated charters because they have no new initiatives of their own. These charters are not going to make us compete successfully in the world economy...they come from old communist regimes that failed. by Think fresh on November 20 2009, 17:52 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Nationalisation of Mines Comment Hi, Sorry to get off-issue, but the Ian McGill who made the comment referred to is, I'm pretty certain, my oldest friend from Leith Academy Primary School in Edinburgh. We lost touch, through my own idiocy, when he emigrated to SA in the 70s and it'd . .more be great to hear from him again. If he, or anyone who can get in touch with him, reads this, my e-mail is rwleslie@gmail.com . .less by Bob Leslie on January 13 2010, 02:52 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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