Helen Zille responds to Pierre de Vos

Professor Pierre de Vos has accused me of "double standards and hypocrisy" because of the way I am dealing with allegations of marital infidelity and sexual harassment against MEC for Community Safety, Lennit Max (see here). De Vos notes that I have been highly critical of revelations regarding President Jacob Zuma's infidelity which led to the birth, outside of marriage, of his 20th child. Why have I not been equally critical of Max, de Vos asks.

Firstly, there is a difference between a fact and an allegation. The entire edifice of our law is based on separating the two. Allegations may be true. But they may also be vexatious, frivolous, driven by hidden agendas or part of a smear campaign. That is why our law assumes that people are innocent until proven guilty.

No-one is disputing the facts in the Jacob Zuma matter. Early in 2009, he impregnated his friend's daughter. This means he had unprotected sex with her. The date of conception fell between two of Jacob Zuma's marriages. The baby was born shortly before President Zuma announced his engagement to another woman who will be his sixth wife. All this is "common cause" as they say in law.

In contrast, the allegations surrounding Lennit Max are highly contested. The allegations were initiated by Max's former media officer, Julian Jansen, who at the time faced a disciplinary hearing which resulted in his dismissal and whose case is now on appeal. Jansen alleged that Max harassed two women in his Ministry. Both women strenuously deny these allegations, as does Max. In the circumstances, it is impossible to treat them as if they are proven facts.

In the middle of this polemic, Ms Belinda Petersen, a former junior employee of the Police Services, emerged. She claimed to have had sex with Lennit Max while he was representing her in a disciplinary case on charges of insubordination. Again, Max strenuously denies this. His account is the direct opposite. He says that Petersen made sexual advances to him, after which he withdrew from her case. He has produced an affidavit from a colleague about previous cases in which Ms Petersen has apparently made unfounded allegations of sexual harassment against other police officers.

Until the allegations have been separated from the facts through a proper legal process, it is impossible to work out what happened, let alone take decisive action.

De Vos is correct when he says that an allegation of a senior official having sexual relations with an employee is an issue that would always merit public scrutiny.

It certainly merited my scrutiny. This is why I called in the two women who were alleged to have been harassed, and discussed the matter with them. If they deny it, how can I accept a third party's version? In fact, the women told me they believe the allegations may be part of a smear campaign.

As for the alleged affair with Ms Petersen: Lennit Max was not an official in the police force during 2007. His term as commissioner came to an end in 2003 - four years before he represented Ms Petersen at the hearing. And Ms Petersen waited for another three years after that before she told her story to the Son newspaper. The timing, coming shortly before the Provincial Congress at which Max is a candidate for the provincial leadership, cannot automatically be discounted as a coincidence.

In this kind of context, is it fair to drive this issue in the public domain without establishing the facts? Because there is a difference between an allegation and a fact, the Max matter is profoundly different from the Zuma matter.

But even in cases where marital infidelity is indeed an established fact, some cases cause a greater public outcry than others. If one looks back over the past three decades, there are many revered leaders, from a range of political parties, who have acknowledged sexual relationships outside of their marriages. Some made waves. Others never caused a ripple. The question is: Why are some scandals more scandalous than others?

The answer is contextual.

Let's take the Zuma matter. If an extra-marital relationship involves public hypocrisy, lies or broken promises, it registers higher on the scandal scale. We all know that President Zuma's situation involved all three. After his rape trial in 2006, he apologized to the nation for having unprotected sex, and promised to mend his ways. Over 66% of South Africans subsequently elected him President, without knowing that he had broken his promise even before the election date.

On 1 December 2009 he addressed the nation on World Aids Day, stressing that personal responsibility and change in sexual behaviour were the only viable ways of stopping the HIV pandemic. It later emerged that the daughter from his extra-marital relationship was born shortly before he made that speech. When politicians do not practice what they preach, it also registers higher on the scandal scale.

When they resort to sophistry to justify their actions, the scandal only multiplies. This is what happened when President Zuma played the "culture card" and said that his culture justified his behaviour. Experts in Zulu culture immediately slated this claim, saying that no culture, polygamous or otherwise, justified such actions. Indeed, only weeks earlier, President Zuma had promoted polygamy saying it was better to have multiple legalized relationships than to cheat on your monogamous wife. As he was saying this, he knew he had been cheating on his wives.

Contextual factors either aggravate or mitigate any kind of scandal. Without in any way condoning marital infidelity, it is clear that contextual factors are the reason why some "affairs" make waves, and others remain below the surface. And if it turns out that Lennit Max has been lying to me, his context will change dramatically.

In conclusion the reason I have approached the Zuma and Max issues differently is because I recognize the difference between an allegation and a fact. And it is because I critically evaluate the context in each case. This is what they teach you to do in law school. It is not double standards and it is not hypocrisy.

Helen Zille. Premier of the Western Cape and Leader of the Democratic Alliance

Source: http://www.constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/

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After I first heard about the Max incident I also thought that the DA were being hypocritical. Amongst colleagues, I was loudest in my demands that Max should be booted out. And I agreed with Pierre de Vos conclusions that the DA and/or Zille were hypocritical. But in matters like these it is . .more good to suspend "judgement" or perhaps more accurately opinion until hearing all sides of the story. And having heard HZ's response I have to agree that, hypocritical though it may appear at first glance, she is right. So let the matter run its course. BUTif these allegations turn out to be true, then Max should be booted out of the DA or at least disqualified/excluded from party leadership. The DA, and I count myself as a supporter, need to show SA that they can act fairly and honourably, unlike the shocking example shown by Zuma. I note that in Zuma's case the public has not heard from the woman who fathered his child out of wedlock nor from any of his wives, but by now they have had plenty of opportunity to comment. I would like to hear their comments as well. Or have they been silenced in the interests of national security?l . .less by Alto on February 17 2010, 14:17 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I heard her explain it this way on the radio last night Seems very reasonable to me - no hypocrisy whatsoever - just a problem that occured that has been handled quickly, professionally and efficiently. If only the ANC handled their transgressions with such competence. by Sad Days on February 17 2010, 14:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

This article explains your stance perfectly (Before this I was truly worried) Why on earth don't we get the facts in the media? It is such a pity that so many South Africans don't get to read this forum. I now agree with Helen having just read the whole story. I truly thought that Helen's leadership was faulty . .more regarding Lennit Max, thank goodness I now see no hypocrisy here. . .less by didi on February 17 2010, 21:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Scary... that some people cannot reason or apply logic. Didi and Sad Days, you needed this soliloquy from Zille before you could logically make the distinction between the 2 cases? Methinks it's about time logic was intorduced as a subject in SA schools! by Jean Racine on February 17 2010, 22:01 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

logic "intorduced" --> add spelling and proofreading to that :) by @Jean Racine on February 17 2010, 23:06 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Lennit Max Can someone please send this article to Redi Direko so we can have an apology from her too for being very judgemental before the facts were presented. Its time the media started regulating itself with representation of facts rather than forever looking . .more for the "story" . .less by Spider on February 18 2010, 02:48 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

HZ This is one seriously competent person. just wish the DA could better market themselves to the black mass electorate by nm on February 18 2010, 06:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

cleaving to the facts. The Times, on 3 February, published a "purported copy" of the notice of birth of the child of the relationship between Zuma and Ms Khosa. It reflects them as a couple married to each other by customary union. Zuma says the child is illegitimate and that . .more he has paid damages to the Khosa family for the results of his extra-marital activities which led to the birth. Both he and Ms Khosa have declined to comment on the obvious discrepancy between the purported official record with its authentic looking date stamp and the version of their relationship Zuma has put out in the media. Both can't be right. So the "facts" around Zuma are far from common cause. When the hooker in the Profumo scandal, Mandy Rice Davis, had it put to her that he would deny all improprieties heaped upon him she replied: "He would, wouldn't he." It would be political suicide for Max to admit any of the tabloid allegations of sexual improprieties against him, even those that make his earlier denials of contact seem somewhat hollow. Until the competing versions in both matters are subjected to proper objective scrutiny, it is premature to rush to judgment in either of them. And by the way Helen, fewer than 66% of those who actually voted in the last general election (a fraction of all South Africans) supported Zuma, most of whom think him crooked. . .less by Paul Hoffman on February 18 2010, 06:39 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Well said, Mrs. Zille! How I wish all politicians - or at least most of them - were like you! Then we could have a country to be proud of. by Dr. Angelo Lambiris on February 18 2010, 06:53 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Eloquent and to the point. Wow, an SA politician making sense. Well I never...... by Dave on February 18 2010, 06:54 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Two wrongs dont make a right This whole matter arose from radio 702 asking why Helen Zille has not apologised to JZ as a consequence of these allegations against Leonard Max.Lets assume Max is guilty, the question is do two wrongs make a right.We appear to have forgotten that . .more recently JZ was interviewed at Davos about his pologamy in front of some very influential people and he assured them that he treated them all equally, yes by cheating on all of them. The President,Jacob Zuma is the shop display window of this country and what he exhibits is not very attractive. . .less by Mike on February 18 2010, 07:43 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Helen's reasoning Well said - I fully support this women! by Supporter on February 18 2010, 07:57 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Helen Prof, you want to take on Helen you better be on top of your game. She is seriously competent. by Dennis on February 18 2010, 08:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hey, SA This is the kind of leadership you could have had! Instead you chose Zuma. As many people in this country lament: "we sure ain't got no Obama"! by VJ on February 18 2010, 08:28 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Max Why don't we wait until the enquiry is over before judging by erewhon on February 18 2010, 08:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Spider Why don't you send it to her? her e-mail address is publicly available on the 702 website: RediD@702.co.za by Airwolf on February 18 2010, 09:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

DA and ANC I like Helen Zille's principles and morals.It is amazing how,with these,and clear thinking,she can time and time again show up the ruling party as a bunch of corrupt and amoral buffoons. I can't understand how anyone votes for them. by Voter on February 18 2010, 09:12 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Well done HZ An even firmer supporter now... HZ for first woman president by Brendan on February 18 2010, 09:25 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Worry blanket After reading this I cannot help but picture the prof cowering in a corner, sucking his thumb and frantically rubbing his worry blanket. by Darwin on February 18 2010, 09:30 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Zuma's lovechild timelines Zille is confused. When Zuma's child was conceived, Zuma was not president. The child was born in November 2009, which makes it perfectly logical that she was conceived before Zuma was president. This is not a fact Zille touches on to make her story seem . .more logical. Wake up to facts people !!! . .less by The Gr8t on February 18 2010, 10:01 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Slap, slap! Message to Prof. de Vos: "Don't come to a gunfight armed with a knife!" Slap, slap! by Alice in Wonderland on February 18 2010, 10:07 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Oh Helen Gees, had us worried there for a minute!, all this Max talk was going to make us Zuma critics look at ourselves in another light. Phew!(collective sigh of relief), thanks for saving our blushes Ms Zille, now the stone throwing can . .more continue. Wait a minute though, we seem to have completely missed the Profs point. There is an allegation out on Mr Max, true or not we don't know, and for you to come out defending him in this manner before all facts are established, you risk a lot of egg on your face. Please read the Prof's last paragraph again, a much wiser option than the "fight back" course you've chosen. By the way, the DA wants to appeal to the masses, who are the only ones with the power to put it in government. All this legal argument is neat, even clever, but do you know what the electorate is seeing - Helen Zille: hypocrite. . .less by KhulGaz on February 18 2010, 10:46 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

All very well but... The distinction between unproven allegations and facts is well made. The problem for me, though, was Zille saying that it was a "private matter". I disagree and her acknowledgement that an "allegation of a senior official having sexual relations with an . .more employee is an issue that would always merit public scrutiny" indicates there should be an investigation. She should be saying something to the effect that the party stands by their man until - and if - the allegations are proven, at which point action will be taken. To state flatly that is was a private matter because it was different to Zuma's affair seems disingenuous and evasive. I am glad there has been a public outcry as it has raised the profile of the matter and forced an explanation although she still hasn't indicated what will be done if he is found to be guilty. She raises the possibility of having to make a climb-down. . .less by Renter on February 18 2010, 10:50 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

De Vos must be investigated I have always suspected that De Vos is not what he presents himself to be! As a Professor of law, I would have expected him to understand the difference between the two cases better than Godzilla. SA is so short of experts that we would accept any quack . .more as an expert, or Prez for that matter. . .less by Juju on February 18 2010, 10:51 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Fact vs. Allegation Thank you Helen, I - and the entire nation - needed that! by Mike Turner on February 18 2010, 10:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The thing is they will not listen and will continue to vote ANC no matter The ANC can continue to ruin the country and be as corrupt as ever and they will still vote for them. It would not surprise if they all admire Jaocb the Joker for having so many children and wives and girl friends. Is that not what they do? The DA speak a . .more language they do not understand, most unfortunately, and the DA are mostly white and blacks will never ever vote for a white party, not ever. Even if you can prove the white party will benefit them they will never vote for it. Funny people. . .less by They are a waste of time on February 18 2010, 11:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

ZZZZZ Dear Helen, if you have to spend this amount of time and space to explain your point then you have lost the argument. Please concentrate on what you are paid to do rather than arguing a lost cause. by Oom Koos on February 18 2010, 11:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Rubbish Your candidate has had numerous allegations of sexual harrasment posted against him...and you pretend that he is all clean. The President has had the balls to conduct his private affairs in a manner that he deems fit- he has certainly not forced his will . .more on any woman! But we castigate him for this - for having consensual sexual relations with another- and helen you say he shows disregard for the people of this country? Considering the allegations aginst Max, you should launch a full-scale public invetsigation into it- because we are interested to know the truth. Or are you trying to hide the smoke. . .less by Raj on February 18 2010, 11:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hypocrisy It's amazing how HZ is able to connive her way into the hearts of South Africans. She is a very intelligent and eloquent woman, no doubt about that. I am just disgusted by the double standards shown by both HZ and her supporters. JZ was already guilty . .more of rape and corruption before he was even afforded an opportunity to defend himself in a court of law. HZ was calling for Zuma to step down after the revelations of her recent affair, that was before he could explain his side of the story to the public. Zille's utterances were based on a News paper's report. Max is a lucky man. . .less by Malome on February 18 2010, 11:20 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Premature E Daar het jy dit Vossie. Moenie eet voordat jy gebid het nie. by Voter on February 18 2010, 11:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Helen Zille's response to De Vos Dankie prof jy help die DA met blootstelling. by Deville on February 18 2010, 11:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Go Helen Helen Zille for president. by Peter Tos on February 18 2010, 12:16 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hypocrisy, but not as you might expect I agree, HZ's description of the differences in JZ vs Max makes sense, no hypocrisy there. However, this sentence: "Until the allegations have been separated from the facts through a proper legal process, it is impossible to work out what . .more happened, let alone take decisive action." is highly hypocritical in the context of her treatment of the JZ corruption case. . .less by Zomg on February 18 2010, 12:34 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Brilliantly argued, well written - excellent Zille is phneomenal. Glad she's my Premier in Western Cape by John on February 18 2010, 13:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Public Representatives are not entiteled to private affairs Sorry but due to HIV AIDS no extramarital affair is a private matter between two individuals. Due to the potentially fatal consequences of cheating on your spouse or partner , undisclosed adultry or cheating should be a criminal offence! by sc on February 18 2010, 13:10 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

That's why Helen is The Boss. by donovan on February 18 2010, 13:31 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Unfortunate Helen If Helen wishes to take the high ground she should immediately suspend Max and launch a full scale public investigation. Should Max be guilty, then kick him out. Should someone else be guilty of trying to set him up for the upcoming provincial leadership, . .more then such person/s should be kicked out (and I am sure both the DA and Max would have legal claims against such person/s). Helen, take the moral high ground and show that you are not afraid of having the internal workings of the DA scrutinised in public. Hold public hearings where all are welcome and then act decisively on the findings of such hearings. This will allow the public to judge whether the findings of the public commission were manipulated or not and the action that follows will prove whether the DA and it representatives are trustworthy. Even invite members from the ANC to sit on the commission as well as Pierre de Vos. This will enforce a standard that all DA representatives have the highest moral standards, can be trusted and that the DA will act decisively against anyone that transgresses. Only then will you and the DA earn trust and not be branded as another band of lying and manipulating politicians. Build the DA as an organisation that truly serves the people. My personal experience as an ex-DA member is that DA politicians act in their own interest and not in the interest of their constituents. Prove to me that I am wrong. . .less by Ma'at on February 18 2010, 13:33 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I'm a critic I vehemently criticised the acceptance by DA members to ambassadorial posts and I still do. Her comments on this matter however seems just and fair. See http://letterdash.com/g.annandale/the-unquestionable-integrity-of-politicians by Geanann on February 18 2010, 13:47 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Ma'at As far as I know he voluntarily suspended himself. You simply cannot compare HZ with the other politicians in our country. by Clear Thought on February 18 2010, 15:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@TheGr8t Too quick out of the blocks mate - Zille nowhere mentiones that Zuma was president when his love child was conceived. She referred to him in his current capacity as President. But then again your emotive, impulsive and ill-considered response doesn't . .more surprise me, as this is what I've come to expect..... . .less by Ethene on February 18 2010, 15:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hellen It is obvious that many of the comments above come from the DA. There is no amount of justification from HZ will convince me and the majority of SAn's that she is applying double standards and that she is a hyprocrite. She has proved once more . .more that she hates Pres Zuma. Actually what worries the moon when the dog barks. . .less by Pops on February 18 2010, 16:05 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hellen Zille Please not all the allegations against Jacob Zuma in the years running up to his appointment were allegations. Now Hellen Zille your own words follow. "Firstly, there is a difference between a fact and an allegation. The entire edifice of our law is based . .more on separating the two. Allegations may be true. But they may also be vexatious, frivolous, driven by hidden agendas or part of a smear campaign. That is why our law assumes that people are innocent until proven guilty" The DA's whole smear campaign against Jacob Zuma is vexatious, frivolous, driven by hidden agendas. He was never proven guilty and denied a chance to prove his innocence. The rape trial in which he was found NOT GUILTY was just part of the broad smear campaign. Yes he was found innocent NOT GUILTY. PLEASE STOP APPLYING DOUBLE STANDARDS TO SUIT YOUR OWN NARROW AGENDA. As for your 'contextual' argument what bollocks. The only context is the context your own unmitigated prejudice. . .less by Yebo Gogo on February 18 2010, 16:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Lennit Max BTW - Why did Lennit Max have to take special leave to sort things out. by Curious on February 18 2010, 16:43 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

not wit or nit wit @ pops...what a pleasant surprise that you and the majority agree that HZ is not applying double standards or being a hypocrite by voter on February 18 2010, 16:56 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Raj Hey Raj, I don't think that anyone is disputing that JZ has balls...as a country we're pretty much resigned to that fact by now....Neither are we castigating JZ for having consensual sex. What we are a tad worried about is that he preaches one thing about . .more the spread of HIV but does another...I for one would like my president to be a bit more circumspect in the use of umshini wakhe... . .less by CM on February 18 2010, 17:26 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Paul Hoffman "... It would be political suicide for Max to admit any of the tabloid allegations of sexual improprieties against him, even those that make his earlier denials of contact seem somewhat hollow. Until the competing versions in both matters are subjected to . .more proper objective scrutiny, it is premature to rush to judgment in either." Paul, Lennit Max is not the only one denying the allegations. Even the alleged victims deny it. Futhermore, HZ has suspended judgement until the Max saga is completed and explained that that will decide Max's fate. She is not accepting that Max is innocent. . .less by Jeff on February 18 2010, 18:18 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Yebo Gogo " He was never proven guilty and denied a chance to prove his innocence. The rape trial in which he was found NOT GUILTY was just part of the broad smear campaign..." He was never denied a chance to prove his innocence, he avoided going to trial . .more on the charges against him and it was dropped in very spurious circumstances. In fact even in the rape case it was never proven that he was innocent either. It ended up as a "he said, she said" situation and he got the benefit of the doubt. It could not be proved that he was guilty, a long way from saying that he was innocent. Rape cases are notoriously diffiicult to prove the alleged rapist guilty, Just look at the rape conviction rate in this country. . .less by Jeff on February 18 2010, 18:35 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

HZ vs JZ Now you know why JZ did not want to enter an election debate.... she'll be running circles around him by Christo on February 18 2010, 19:29 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

pure fact Helen for president. recall the the class clown. by pops, there are none so blind as those that will not see on February 18 2010, 20:30 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

HZ vs JZ 2 hmmm Helen Zille ---> *debatable* hypocrisy JZ ---> 20 kids, sleeping with friends' daughters, PROVEN corrupt friends, arms scandal, delay tactics for court, spy tapes on Mbeki, costing the taxpayer millions for his wifes&kids. I can . .more see why some people can be confused. What future are you voting for you and your kids? I don't care if you are green or purple, you know who would serve this country better. JZ is definitely a great person who defied the odds but as an able leader, no match to Helen Zille. (Just see how she fixed up Cape Town!). Helen Zille would make this country into the great place it is meant to be, for black, white, everyone. Watch the diversity coming through the DA ranks - it's already a party for all nationalities. Only those waiting for the ANC to one day throw them another undersize fish can't see the fishing rod lying next to them. I just wish we could make more of her! . .less by ME on February 18 2010, 20:42 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Jeff I defend my position with Hellen Zille's own words. - "Firstly, there is a difference between a fact and an allegation. The entire edifice of our law is based on separating the two. Allegations may be true. But they may also be vexatious, frivolous, . .more driven by hidden agendas or part of a smear campaign. That is why our law assumes that people are innocent until proven guilty." So you are saying Hellen's words only apply to certain people. Please explain your thinking to me I don't get it. . .less by Yebo Gogo on February 18 2010, 20:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@Jeff "Futhermore, HZ has suspended judgement until the Max saga is completed" So hellen Zille suspends judgement in the case of max, but in the case;s of Zuma all prejudice including her own is welcome. - Surely Double Standards. - Plain as day. by Yebo Gogo on February 18 2010, 21:04 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

suspending Judgement In matters pertaining to Jacob Zuma. The opposition or media has never entertained the Idea of suspending Judgement untill a legal outcomes are known. No No No. But for their own cadres suddendly all is sacrosanct. Ha Ha Ha. Very Funny. - Don't know . .more why we bother the DA has only got 8 years left absoute max. . .less by William Done on February 18 2010, 21:11 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

President of the Republic of South Africa It's absolutely clear that South Africa needs a very different president, a capable and trustworthy man or women. No need for any unappetising anecdote and legal "twist". South Africa's problems are of such a magnitude, demanding excellent . .more politicians and people, beginning with the very top. Unfortunately Hellen Zille is confronted and maybe overburdened with such a lot of highly disputable political decisions and dodgy attacts. People of her callibre are the only hope for South Africa. One has to wish them well and the necessary stamina. Is it already too late? . .less by Klaus in RSA on February 19 2010, 00:58 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

suspending judgement @ Yobo Gogbo and William Done...presumably you are familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camels back" because it is relevant in this case. Lets consider some recent facts: Fact - Zuma had unprotected sex with a friends daughter . .more who accused him of rape Fact - She was HIV positive so Zuma showered to avoid infection Fact - Zuma apologised for this unacceptable behaviour Fact - Zuma was facing a large number of unresloved charges linked to his financial advisor who was imprisoned Fact - Zuma was absolved from these charges in a manner which has been questioned by a large number of people Fact - Zuma has fathered a child with another friends daughter despite the existence of multiple wives Fact - Zuma has apologised for this incident Fact - Zuma's body guards recently treated a youngster in a most thuggish manner Fact - we are talking about the president of South Africa not some ordinary citizen or minor political functionary I do not know what standards you live by, but for many people OF ALL RACES this behaviour is unacceptable. It is not about the ANC or COPE or the DA it is about the norms imposed by civil society and you must decide whether you live by those norms . .less by spectator on February 19 2010, 06:59 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

@ Sad Days Imagine Lenit Max was an ANC appointee....would "innoncent until proven guilty" still apply or would it a case of "where theres smoke...?" Accepting HZ too easily ol chap....recall she said it was a "private matter". Sleeping with your working . .more colleagues ought not to be happening when you hold public office. Guess, DA's upporters are guilty of blind personality worship too. . .less by Sarel on February 19 2010, 13:38 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

E-pos - Helen Zille Sal u so gaaf wees om ons te laat weet na watter e-pos adres 'n mens 'n artikel kan stuur ? Baie dankie - groete - Francois de Kock E-pos : jbffruits@cybertrade.co.za by Francois de Kock on July 26 2010, 20:15 Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

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