Jacob Zuma's speaking notes for meeting with ANC Top Six

The struggle fought for democracy was NOT for the constitutional democracy we have today, says Ex-President


28 March 2021

The Secretary General African National Congress Chief Albert Luthuli House 54 Sauer Street Johannesburg


Per Email:

Revolutionary Greeting Cde SG


Kindly receive the attached document. Please distribute the document to the Top 6 members, and the Provincial Leaders as copied.

I hope this is in order. Comradely

Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Mhlanganyelwa Zuma African National Congress

CC: Top 6 Members

CC: Chairman KZN, Mr S. Zikalala

CC: Secretary General KZN, Mr M. Ntuli

Text of document:

28 March 2021


Chair, thank you very much, thank you very much Comrade President and everyone. I think i think the idea was initiated by the NEC, that we need this meeting to discuss these issues that Comrades have talked about. And I think it is fair, that I hear, the very idea that we have talked about, to say ... unless you say ...much as we said it must be a meeting, we want to use Zuma to speak, but I thought, from NECA, as the leadership, you should be able to say this is the reason why we said you should come, blah, blah, blah, etc; rather than me getting to say, look, this is what I think you know what I've done, what the decision is.

At least it will be better after I've heard the leadership, more than just introducing the issue, but saying, this is what we think has happened, whether whatever, I don't want to say things that perhaps are not going to be said; but having said that, I must apologise guys, that at a late hour I requested that instead of having a meeting there, let us go to Zoom. There are reasons, and for me the reasons are very critical, which I cannot necessarily divulge why I took that decision.

I would just like to apologise for that, because I was coming but something happened that caused me not to. So, it's not because, as I hear in the public, that I am trying to snub the Top 6, whatever, I'll never do so, but there was a specific reason that I requested this and it's unfortunate that we couldn't get the SG last night, but finally I was able to send a message through the people I work with. So, I would suggest Chair, that perhaps from Nasa, you present that you saw the need for a meeting, further than the introduction that has been made by the SG.

Comrade Chair, Comrade President, and all Top 6 members. You will really bear with me; I am not going to be short; partly because, as you know we have not had an opportunity to meet at this level since I left to be part of government, a lot has happened. And I will wish that perhaps I exhaust my thinking so that you appreciate where I come from, and why I have acted, perhaps at times, in a strange way, when I was not supposed to. So I will really ask you to bear with me. I will take a bit of time because the outline that the President has made, I think is accurate. I was at some point in the Province.

I thought it was important to brief the Secretary of the Province, and the Chairperson in KZN, so that they should be aware of what was happening. I briefed first the Secretary, because I did not want them, if they were asked by the media any questions, to fail, if they wanted to answer, how to answer.

Then after the meeting with them, I mean when we met, they asked can they see the officials, and report on the discussions we had; and I said absolutely no problem. If the Top 6 wanted to see me, these are my leaders, I will see them. And I had added a point to them, because I was reporting to them, that while meeting with the President has been difficult for a long time; but if this was the Top 6, I have absolutely no difficulty.

And I will explain as I did with them what made me to have difficulties to meet with the president. Perhaps towards the end, I'm going to say a lot of things, at the end focus on that point, as well as the point of the Commission. I wouldn't just talk about the Commission only. But also, what I am going to say is going to be trying to articulate my position; my understanding; whether is the Commission or is the Constitution or whatever.

So, you will bear with me and if you feel we are now hungry, we need to go to lunch, you can do so, and you can interrupt me and do that. I just plead that you bear with me and know that I haven't had time to express my views, whilst I have been coming across a number of things that were of concern to me.


1. Well Comrades, this meeting takes place rather too late. It only takes place when I have been left dry and without much needed support from you. I can't help but feel that the urgency of this meeting is not only concerned about my interests or welfare but a response to external interests and pressure from forces external to the ANC, among others.

2. As a result, while I appreciate the initiative, I am disappointed that it is inspired by the desire to hand me over to a system about which I complain. It appears to me that the purpose of this meeting is not to help me confront the abuse of our constitutional democracy, but to force me to submit to pressure from people whose desire is to destroy me. I will not submit to forces that seek to undermine the ANC or seek to turn it into their tool of influence.

3. It is important that I tell you about my complaint about the judiciary. However, before I do so, let me give a historical account and context that created our judiciary, and my understanding of it and how I feel that understanding is being eroded. My complaint is not trivial or about just my issues. It is an observation that our judiciary has departed from its historical and constitutional tasks.

4. We have walked a long journey together and since 1996 when the Constitution was adopted, we made an irrevocable and unbreakable constitutional covenant that never again will we be victims of any forms of oppression. We had paid a heavy price for this national covenant and when we adopted it, we poured all our efforts into assembling institutions of government through which we would channel our newly found freedoms.

5. In the preamble to the Constitution, we entrenched a national vision in terms of which we committed ourselves to healing the divisions of the past and establishing a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental rights; laying the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law. In this new constitutional order, everyone would not only be equal before the law but receive equal protection of the law. To place beyond any speculation what our rights would look like, we agreed on the Bill of Rights and said that this Bill of Rights is and I quote "the cornerstone of democracy in South Africa. It enshrines the rights of all people in our country and affirms the democratic values of human rights, equality and freedom" Unquote. Because of our experience with undemocratic and oppressive governments of the racist white regime, we stated that the, and quote again, "State must respect, protect, promote and fulfil the rights in the Bill of Rights" unqoute. We recognized that legitimate limitations could be imposed on these rights, but such limitations had to be reasonable and justifiable in an open democratic society based on human dignity, equality, and freedom.

6. In order to ensure that our system of constitutional democracy had worthy arbitrators, we conceived the Constitutional Court, and I want to say something about the Constitutional Court. This court is the symbol of our Constitutional democracy. It is the only judicial institution born from the struggle of our freedom. It represents our freedom and with it we believed that we would be able from the unjust and oppressive laws that had been generated by the courts of oppression - the apartheid courts. It is an enduring symbol of our national constitutional heritage representing our decisive break with the past. The men and women who were to serve the Constitutional Court would not conduct the affairs of the Court with arrogance and oppressive tendencies. In the words of our national hero, former President Nelson Mandela, on 14 February 1995 at the inauguration of the Constitutional Court, on behalf of the people of South Africa, he said to the then Chief Justice Arthur Chaskalson; and I quote, "Yours is the most noble task that could fall to any legal person. In the last resort, the guarantee of the fundamental rights and freedoms for which we fought so hard, lies in your hands. We look to you to honour the Constitution and the people it represents. We expect from you, and we demand of you, the greatest use of your wisdom, honesty, and good sense- no short cuts, no easy solutions. Your work is not only lofty, but also a lonely one". This is what Madiba said.

7. At the signing of the Constitution on 10 December 1996, President Mandela called the Constitutional Court a quote/unquote "true and fearless custodian of our constitutional agreements."

8. The true feature of our constitutional democracy included an independent judiciary. We were to build this from the ruins of the apartheid judicial system that had been a key player in the enforcing apartheid and racist laws.

Judicial independence therefore formed part and parcel of our new legal revolution. Why we needed an independent judiciary? We needed it because it was to ensure that the courts were transformed into unwavering and uncompromising custodians of our constitutional democracy and freedoms.

9. Sadly, I have watched with disappointment, deep concern, and seething anger the degradation of our judicial independence and judicial lapses in the protection of our freedoms. I had never believed that the tendencies of the apartheid judicial system would be as tenacious as they appear to have been in shaping and influencing the character of our current judiciary. I want to give a frank assessment of the judiciary from my own experience to which you have been witnesses but you chose to look the other way and to let me to dry. And I would like comrades to just bear this point in mind. As I young man I sacrificed everything. I went to fight for the rights of the oppressed people of this country. I suffered for it. I spent 10 years in prison. I understood what I was doing. I was not told, I was not influenced. When we negotiated, much as I would have a lot of observations, one of the things we wanted to ensure was to have the rights of the citizens of this country, who never had before, enshrined in the Constitution and they must be observed and what I am just saying because I want you as my leadership to understand why I have taken this decision. It's not a question of an administrative thing that I am trying to say let us administer the country wrong. I think there is a fundamentally wrong thing. I'm not even sure whether people who take these positions were ever, ever prepared to deal with this serious, because even apartheid judges became poor judges afterwards.

So, bear in mind, thereafter I became the President of this country, put by the ANC, with kind of responsibilities, and if I don't become critical of what I think is not going right, I will not be satisfying my decisions to be part of freedom fighters and to be part of the government and be a citizen of this society. I just want you to bear in mind, because people could say, as my critics have been saying, that I'm playing tricks etc. Because if they are not doing things right, and I think they are not, and I must have the satisfactory answer. I just wanted to underline that point so that you appreciate why I'm saying the kind of things I'm saying.

But before I do so, in terms of getting to some other details, I must deal with the temptation of the courts to be dismissive of my criticisms or better still their insensitive attitude towards legitimate criticism and the scandalization of thought, conscience, belief and opinion. I am entitled in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa to hold and express views, opinions, and beliefs about the judiciary. Section 15 of the Constitution guarantees this right. I am also entitled to freedom of conscience and it is on my right to conscience that I refuse to participate in the judicial process that appears to lack the attributes of independence.

10. Comrades, when millions of South Africans together with the international community raised their voices against injustice, it was a failure of the judiciary to be the custodian of our freedoms. +; Together with hundreds of thousands of comrades, and you, dedicated my entire youth and sacrificed my freedom and the life of my family, to ensure that the racist oppressive system of the apartheid regime lost power. I believe that I was doing so for the full liberation of this country. I also envisaged a democratic South Africa which I, like ALL South Africans, would enjoy the fruits of liberation and the rights guaranteed in the Constitution. It appears that I was totally wrong. I am disappointed that even this initiative, seems to be a response to the interests of middle classes that pressure our movement to act in certain ways. Without any sense of irony, you approach me on their behalf. I say this because throughout my suffering at the hands of our judiciary system, I have missed our leadership.

11. I do not want to bother you with all the incidents and suffering which I and my family have endured over the years while my own organization buried its head in the sand and in fact condemned me in order to please what is now clear to be extraneous forces.

12. As you know, I have never enjoyed a single day of my freedom. My woes and problems started soon after the dawn of our democracy. Since then, I was to be the permanent target and scapegoat of forces internal and external to our movement.

13. In 19991 was targeted with an investigation into the Arms Deal, and I was subsequently charged when everyone in our movement knew that I had nothing to do with it. In fact, those that were close to the Arms Deal were never investigated and/or charged at all. Nobody in this country, or in my organisation, would say they did not know this. But it is not a matter than needed to be addressed by the organisation, the ruling party, the very comrades who were involved in this were comrades. I was left out there to dry.

14. In 2003, the NPA made damning allegations against me yet decided not to charge me. Having, in a sense, said here is a criminal. I felt hard done because a cloud was kept hanging over my head while I could not deal with the allegations, which were made, not in a court, in a press conference, and therefore I was just there. No-one thought, well some of the people doing that were cadres of the movement, no-one thought that we should discuss this matter and deal with this matter, and you will realise why I am saying my movement looked away. Had that been done, the criminal trial which I continue to face today would not be -over 20 years later. We still deal with the same issue. I've never heard, there are some, I'm sure, President as a leader in person, you know that something that says, "justice delayed is justice denied". I am sure it applies to everybody except Zuma in South Africa - it doesn't apply to Zuma. Since then, this cloud has been hanging over my head. I continue to face humiliation and condemnation each day by the media, also arranged that the media should be the element that must deal with me, media, public and, regrettably, my own comrades. This have said many. And they have participated in activities against me. While facing these attacks, the ANC has never protected me. Instead, you (the current leadership) even instructed other comrades not to support me. Decision of the NEC that was held in Cape Town. They can go there as individuals, not as ANC, to show ANC regalia. Decision taken by the National Executive Committee of the ANC.

15. As it has become now clear, even my own comrades were aiming to wrestle me out of politics to stop me from becoming part of the leadership of the ANC. Various tactics have been employed in this regard which include character assassination, getting me imprisoned, rape cases planned for me, and even assassinations (which have intensified over the years). Again, the ANC and my comrades have either looked the other way and/or joined the bandwagon to ridicule me and strip me naked in the public eye.

16. Comrades, today you come to me seeking to show that I am wrong in now going to the State Capture Commission charged by the Deputy Chief Justice Zondo. You come under the pretext of sympathy to me and to convince me to testify before the Commission. Basically, this meeting is not about the issues I have raised, which should concern you, but a public show aimed at displaying to forces external to the ANC that you can rein me in. The serious issues I have raised do not seem to concern you or the class on behalf of whom you seek to rein me in. Let me cite certain issues that concern me:

16.1. As I have said above, you have looked the other way as I was being attacked and some of my own comrades made and continue to attack me and my work as President of the Republic of South Africa through the narrative of nine years, nine wasted years.

16.2. My own comrades worked to oust me and even worked with the opposition to remove an ANC President from Parliament-something that was unprecedented. It happened against me, a few times and this happened. To this day, I do not understand what led to this. I asked some of you, what was it that I had done wrong, for me to deserve to be pushed out of this position before the term ended. To this day, you have no answer to give te- me to this question. When I met with you, you tried to give an answer, but it was not an answer that I was asking. This was a serious matter.

16.3. In the more recent years, the ANC has never protected me as I faced unjustified attacks that I assisted the Guptas capture the State. You know very well that is not true, but you left the narrative run along.

16.4. The ANC and some of the leadership condemned me as corrupt - without a shred of evidence to show where I have been corrupt. Even this case that I am talking about for so many years, they have not shown me any evidence.

16.5. You will also recall that you also let me to hang with respect to the Nkandla saga. You know very well that those attacks were unwarranted. There were 3 investigations done at Nkandla and all of them found that I never took even a pen. That was put under because it would have disturbed the narrative. The Public Protector decided to do unprecedented thing - that security officials given to Presidents and Deputy Presidents, all of them, past and current. Their families were not included, that their families have indirectly benefitted; Only to Jacob Zuma Gedleyihlekisa, was that the issue that led to a huge debt of R8 million for me to pay. For what was decided by the Police and the Army, which was decided to all Presidents. They never paid that, only Zuma must pay.

16.6. On 2 November 2016, the former Public Protector issued a damning report stating that I (and my family) facilitated State Capture. She stated that she could not finalize the investigation into 11St at e Capture" and therefore ordered that a Commission into State Capture be appointed by the Chief Justice. The former Public Protector was in a rush to publish the report even though it was clear and stated in the report that she did not finish the investigation. It remains curious why the former Public Protector rushed to issue the report. In fact, an ANC Minister found her the money to do this investigation.

And those that were together with us in the Cabinet will remember that the Minister said there was no, they have no money in the Treasury. But this one was found, specifically and not even done in the usual channelling of the funds to Departments.

16.7. The report was riddled with errors of fact and law. Important for me were clear breaches of the Constitution and its provisions.

The Public Protector took the powers I had as a President away from me and gave them to the Chief Justice. That is the reason I challenged the report in Court. The North Gauteng High Court dismissed the review and mulcted me with a punitive personal cost order. And there have been many.

16.8. I decided to appeal the Court order which I was of the opinion was clearly wrong. However, there was public outcry and pressure to establish the Commission. I then announced that I would nonetheless start the process of establishing the Commission although I was appealing the decision. Because you will recall it was said that I was dodging; when I was following process, which is part of the legal process. If you are not happy, you appeal and you will recall that I was reluctant to move without proper arrangements.

16.9. It became clear to me that the reason that the former Public Protector rushed to issue the damning report (curiously titled - as you remember: Secured in Comfortwhich was not true) was because it was part of a plot to unseat me as President.

16.10. People marched in the streets, including ANC members, condemning me and demanding that I be removed. My own organization did not protect me. To date, the initiatives to meet with me and hear me out are all inspired by the desire to sink me and to demonstrate to powerful forces that the ANC can interfere with my choices as to how I exercise my rights and pursue my litigation as I see fit.

16.11. To make matters worse, my own ministers at the time and comrades, took to the media and boasted that I should be removed. And leaders of the ANC, "the time has come this man must go". But you were not able to provide what I had done. I was pressured to resign as Head of State. Because I cared and continue to care for the ANC, I decided to resign.

16.12. The President decided to withdraw the appeal (which I had made on the decision of the Public Protector) which was supposed to deal with valid constitutional issues which I think will impact this Constitution gravely. By the stroke of your mighty pen, Mr President, you took away an opportunity for the Constitutional Court as the highest court in the land, to test the constitutionality of the former Public Protector's recommendations. Notably, President, you decided to let me deal with the personal cost order without your support. It cannot be suggested that you did not know that your decision would prejudice me.

16.13. As if that was not enough Mr. President, you unfairly and unjustifiably decided to stop funding of my criminal trial. This is contrary to the agreements I had with the State and State Attorney. You would recall that this was in any event practice in government. Comrades, you know very well stopping legal funding would prejudice me immensely as I was facing the State with limitless resources. To this date, I have no resources and for almost 3 years, my lawyers are helping me without being paid. As I start with the criminal trial in the coming months, I face an insurmountable task and am at the mercy of the lawyers who have decided themselves to assisting me when my own Comrades have forsaken me. Comrades, you neglected and continue to neglect me. You know the implications - but perhaps that is what some of you hope for: that I finally go to jail by whatever means or tactics. I must also add, comrades, that some of you have followed me abroad to talk to people and media and my friends that I know, to plead with them that they must not support me. And some of those are my friends, and they have told me. That proved the point that it is not an accidental behaviour. Just to quote one, so that you don't say I am just making allegations for sweet nothing. I went to Qatar and the first issue my friend, the Emir, there was my friend, told me that your country has been sending messages to say that I must not meet. And that very morning, Mr Mandia Mandela was there having been given a special jet to fly there to try to stop the Emir not to meet with me. It came from his mouth, not me. And he said, I said that I've got nothing to do with the internal affairs of South Africa. You are my friend. You are coming to me as my friend. He is not the only one. Quite a number of heads of states have said similar things. And you must realise that what I am saying here, I am not being funny. When I say you have neglected me, it's actually an understatement.

You have worked hard to stop me from getting anything to help me on my side. And you can appreciate why, therefore, I take this line that perhaps this meeting; so many other things have been happening, nobody has ever wanted to see me, to discuss those matters. Only when I say I'm not going to this Commission and as I will explain later, you will also realise, I'm correct by so doing.

No one can face the trial I am about to face without resources, but because I'm Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma, only me I'm going to face it. But my own comrades have facilitated that I must be suffocated financially so that I am buried once and for all for crimes I did not commit. Fortunately, and with no resources but alone with my lawyers, I will fight to prove my innocence and will endeavour to reveal who the criminals are in our movement.

16.14. Lastly comrades, when I first appeared at the Commission, I reluctantly made serious statements about the constitutionality of the Commission. What I perceived it to be - my final grave. And I said so there. You will record this. I also raised it, some of the issues I'm raising here. So, it's not like I just turned around to raise issues. I said it was unconstitutional. I, the one who established it. I was forced by the Judicial to establish a commission in a wrong manner. Again, I was neglected and ridiculed as you looked the other way.

17. I hope you understand that I raise these issues frankly because you are my comrades, and you are the only forum at which I can confront these issues. That is why the ANC taught us. That we discuss the matter. Don't shy away from them. Find solutions.

Where there is no solutions, you agree there is no solution here, then you say what do we do? Comrades, as you come here to persuade me to go to the Commission in compassion, the irony is that you are ignoring my concerns which I have legitimately raised. It is further evidence that you would rather my rights be trampled upon, than upset the powerful classes in society, who want to suffocate me. If you cared for me, you would join me to tackle the issues I raise. You would confront what threatens our democracy. I am no threat to democracy or the rule of law. If anything, I will fight for it. But, if I believe there being abused I will stand up.

18. lastly comrades, I feel that you come here under false presences. It is not that you have sympathy for me. This is part of your ruse in the public's eye. While you comfort me with words of support, your actions loudly speak and say that you do not care and in fact some of you want to see me in jail - by hook or crook.

A few points that I think remain overlooked in the bigger debate and that are of profound importance to the longevity and survival of the ANC.

18.1. We are living in what we term a "constitutional democracy" but fail to interrogate its real meaning. The painful struggle we fought was for democracy and NOT the constitutional democracy we have today. This was negotiated and know, I was part of it. But it is the manner in which it operates that has begun to give me to rethink it. I say this because; the constitution we all praise has turned into an instrument to subvert the will of the people.

The majority of people who mandate us at every election to represent them in parliament can no longer see their aspirations being attained by us because the decisions and actions of parliament are permanently arrested by the judiciary through the constitution. In other words, we are forced into implementing only that which an unelected judiciary agrees with. That is not a real democracy but a pseudo democracy. The role of the judiciary was only intended to be the enforcement of the law not to control the outcomes of a democratic process. What are we doing to fix this? How can just 11 people have so many powers to control a whole elected legislative assembly?

Isn't this a little bit funny? We fought for democracy. The majority rules. Whilst the majority rules, the majority rules. What happens when they are wrong in the decisions they take? I think it will be a disaster. What happens when they are turned into counter revolutionary forces against the people? What happens when they assume more powers than they are allowed? What happens when they unilaterally dissolve parliament tomorrow and establish their own structure in place? What will we do? Will it not be too late by then? There is something fundamentally wrong in this model. I know I'm coming into a debate which you may feel is unfair, but it is after the experience through which I've gone having occupied certain positions, observed what is happening and that's why I said within you I can raise these matters. And it is our task as the liberation movement to rectify this, if at all we agree. We may not necessarily agree.

18.2. Why does the ANC now live for opposition and media approval instead of following the resolutions of its structures? There are many resolutions that don't enjoy support in our opposition and media and those are swept under the carpet. Yet it is the media and opposition that put the ANC for people to step aside and the ANC bows to that pressure ignoring how divisive this approach is to the organization. What suffers the most when we are being divided in this way by our enemies? How is the ANC going to account to its members for removing their elected officials through an unknown process to the movement?

18.3. I remind you that it is disingenuous of this leadership to now say they support me when it was this very same leadership that discouraged and rebuked members who wanted to show me support in my court appearances. And it is this very leadership that led the campaign that President Zuma must resign when he had committed no crime against the organization. To date no one gives an answer to the question when I asked, what I had done. To come to me in private while having not said a single word in public about what you say here today lacks sincerity.

18.4. The NPA has received money from Steinhoff yet the ANC sees nothing wrong in any of that but instead wants to subject me to an unfair legal process. I say it is unfair because: a fair legal system insists that judicial decisions must always be reviewable by a higher court so that by the time the person on the unfavourable end of the process feels satisfied that the issue has been thoroughly dealt with. You will know for a fact, when Judge Zondo made a judgment we said we are taking this matter to review. He did not care for that.

He went ahead, put a case on the Constitutional Court and the Constitutional court proceeded as well. In my case, the matter was sent to the final stage of the Constitutional court. This is the primary injustice I complain about. I have not had the legal benefit of having the full legal process to deal with my objections. My departure from or refusal to appear before Judge Zondo is not a constitutional issue. The constitutional decisions was taken when the Constitutional Court knew that there was a pending review application against Judge Zondo's decision. There is no such offence in the constitution for the issue to have been heard by the constitutional court as the court of first instance.

18.5. If things were done properly without prejudice, without judges taking decisions that look more political than legal. For an example, Judge Zondo takes a decision to preside on a matter against him, acts as a witness, in the same matter, to himself, a prosecutor and a judge on a matter against him.

If this is how some in the judiciary view this act or behaviour as representing the democracy, the democracy we know, then we have a serious problem comrades. A very serious problem.

19. I respect the ANC, its entire membership, its discipline and its culture, but I will not allow myself to be part of a system that undermines what we fought for. I have decided that I will go to prison if needs be; but will not succumb to a compromised and politicized judicial system. I will also not join you in seeking the approval of White Monopoly Capital forces that tell you to persuade me. This is no defiance of the ANC but my right to deal with my litigation as I deem appropriate.

20. I have noted the proposal that you have made to me. It concerns me that you even contemplate that you could do what you had said you can do. I'm not against us finding a solution to the problem; but it must be an appropriate solution.

I don't think we should overlook the issues on this particular aspect that I've raised. For an example: my concerns now are not only about Judge Zondo but it is also about the Constitutional court itself. This Commission, in fact l should make this point because this Commission from the beginning; the very fact that Commissions normally have Deputy Chairpersons; this one does not have. And there was a direct question asked to the Judge by my team, I mean legal team, "Why did you agree to be the only Chairperson?" He said no, because I did not want any dissent to my views when I conclude here. That is very funny. That's very funny. Having been a President I established a number of Commissions, but if only one person, if the Commission was dealing with the one isolated matter. Normally we have two. If you had given it a name, State capture; you actually I'm sure you would have needed three.

21. Comrades, if I fail to defend myself, I will face the consequences rather than join a kind of a process that is aimed at sacrificing me. Or to satisfy the minorities that run our lives these days. That influence everything and try to influence ·our movement.

Comrade Chair, the manner in which this Commission was established was weak from the beginning to where we are. Firstly, I have contested the issue that this Commission is called the State Capture. There is no State that was ever captured. This name was to dramatize this Commission, so that people would see need to take out money to establish it. But to do what? To get at Zuma. Probably because the cases were not succeeding to get at Zuma. The very fact that the Minister of Finance found money when there was no money.

He has said to the Cabinet there was no money for governmental programmes. And found a lot of money to do this work. And the very fact that a Public Protector who was going out, was made to do this was very suspicious, when there was another coming. Because it is not the individual, it is the office that does this work. When for example, he was about to go, he made an appointment with me to come and brief me about other matters including this one. And I was expecting he was going to say I've investigated up to here. But on the day before the meeting was to take place, he changed the agenda of the meeting and said he is coming to ask me questions.

And as a result, we were not prepared. We told him, he came with the questions as he was, and that would be the last meeting. He said here are the questions I must ask you. I said you cannot ask me. In fact, he quarrelled with my lawyer, who said but you should have given us the questions so that we could look at them and be ready to answer them. He said no, he's in a hurry because he has to go. And Hulley said but is the Public Protector coming in? What's your problem? And he said no.

That's inexperience. Even these two advocates I have here. They are more senior than her. I must do it. Why her? It looks to me that she was part of a plot, because even her report that she presented from Nkandla, as well as her recommendations were very funny. That when I was told that the Security says now you are a President you therefore need, these things are in law. But me, I had to pay for them. I think that in itself was a problem. When she gave instruction to the Chief Justice that he must find a judge for me that was a problem.

Where did she get all those powers? Even the way it has to be done. Because the Constitution, in no way, it says for an example, even if the president is implicated, can't do the Commission. Now why would a Judge, judge that no she's right. So, there are a lot of problems that I find which involved the Constitutional Court. The Chief Justice should have said to the Public Protector, sorry you are making a mistake. I don't have that right in the Constitution. To appoint a Chair of a Commission of the President.

But they continued. But what was also interesting, when that Judge Mogoeng Mogoeng came to me to say he had found a Judge. The name of the Judge he gave first was Desai from Cape Town. I said thank you very much. The following day he came in, wangena nezicabha, gulukudu, in Zulu, and then said, no, no, no, I'm told there is something wrong with this Judge, but I'm giving you another one. And that is Zondo. Later I had the suspicion that this was done by people who came to him to say he is making a mistake because they wanted a particular outcome in this Commission. I thought I was mistaken, in fact, the former Public Protector has made a statement after I said I am not going to the Commission, where she said Zuma can't do so. This Commission was meant for him. And she has been confronted with this statement. But it proves a point, and my suspicion and why I made that statement in the Commission first that this Commission is supposed to be the final grave to bury Zuma.

I am not prepared to be buried whilst alive. Because I think, even the fact that Judge Zonda abuses his positions because he is the Deputy Chief Justice. He instructs his subordinates to make a ruling against me. He does not go to other courts, where for an example, were challenging his decision. He goes up all the time and they comply. But the mistake they've made, besides the other mistakes that I am talking about is to take away my right to remain silent. Which is a constitutional right. They have therefore involved themselves in the conflict.

Why do they take my right? Why do they say so, when it is the right of all citizens enshrined in the Constitution? That is what is making me more angry about how our Judiciary is. Because they have no right to take my rights. Because they are Judges? They don't. They do not have. And that's why, once they say so, because I could see the connivance between them and the Chairperson of the Commission. And I said, if that is the case, they must send me to jail. And I think Zonda has exposed himself even more. He has sentenced me whilst chairing the Constitution. And sentenced by letter to the Constitutional Court that they must sentence me two years. Is that Judiciary of ours democratically established? In keeping with democracy? Is it democracy giving a Judge

the right to take out his anger on the person you are handling? I don't think so. Does our democracy says you can name yourself if there is a complaint against yourself, you can then become a Judge, and then become a Prosecutor, you then become the witness and everything; because that is what Judge Zondo did. I complained that he is biased. He answered me that he is not biased. That's giving evidence, refuting the evidence I'm giving. He is not refuting it, as not sitting in the chair to judge. He responds so he's going to be the Prosecutor. He is going to be the witness. He is going to be the Judge.

To judge me. It's unfair. Unfair. And I think not correct. I have before asked Judges to recuse themselves and they have done so. Now if I go there what am I doing for people, in my view, who are not doing the right thing?

What is the time to propose? We proposed it many times to them. They did not accept. That we could respond in an affidavit. We are from there.

We made the proposal because we thought that proposal could help us avoid the allegations that I was making that he is biased. Because I would not have to appear before him. But I would have answered all other questions. He refused. You can ask him. He refused. So, what must we do?

Now bear in mind, just mark this point. It's no longer just Zondo; the Constitutiona I Court itself, has been biased. They forced me to go to the Commission when there was a pending matter. I don't understand what does this mean in law. And not just to force me to go when there is a pending matter of a review, but, when I go there, they are taking away my right to remain silent. I must speak. It is an order of court. And I am saying no. I am not going to do it. I am not going to do it. I am not going to do it.

But let me deal with the last point Chair. I know I have taken a lot of your time, but I thought it was necessary for me to do so. Because I think, as my leadership, you should be aware. When Comrade Jesse came to me, and I have also said this to the Chairperson and the Secretary of the Province, the issue of me not ready to meet the President. I think it is fair that I make this point here. The reason is simple. I must tell you. For me, the President showed some dishonesty. He also showed lack of credibility. When the campaign that I must resign was gaining momentum I travelled to KZN and we were going to Parliament. I travelled via KZN and I saw a demonstration at Luthuli House wherein ANC comrades were demonstrating against ANC.

And this was about the campaign against me-that I must go. And if I go Cyril Ramaphosa must come in. I then felt I needed to meet the President and the Secretary-General, in Cape Town. Because I felt many comrades, including Comrades already in the Top 6, were already hot on this matter. That Zuma must go. And nobody was telling me what have I done. I must just go. So I asked for this meeting. This meeting took place in Cape Town.

The SG came late. We started talking with the President. And the point I was making was that when I saw that demonstration, it means that the ANC was going to a long drive of conflict within itself. And I felt, in the history of the ANC, my name will be there to say Zuma was part of the problem. And of course, it will be Zuma this side, Cyril Ramaphosa this side.

I then said to Comrade President, President I have a proposal to make to stop the fight within the ANC, so that the ANC can unite. And I said my proposal is that as the President of the country, I am no longer the President of the ANC, it looks like some people who can't hear, who want me out. Instead of allowing that to happen, I want to make a statement. Public statement, wherein I am going to say I have taken a decision to resign as a result of this call that is being made. Not justifying it. It was clear that nobody was ready to justify it properly.

And if I do so, I would want that statement not to come from me, but to come from this meeting of ours. I had thought the Secretary-General and the President, in particular, they were very critical for the life of the ANC and that is why I asked them. I did not ask entire Top 6 because I thought the matter needed a very close discussion. And I said my proposal therefore would be that I make the statement. What would be in the statement is that I have taken the decision to resign.

I think it would be important to those who want me to go to know that there is no definite date that I go. But I would love to have some time. I was talking to my comrades. The time between 5 and 6 months, and I explained the reason why. That in the 6 months I would love, because the problem is in the ANC, that I would love that the President, President Ramaphosa and myself we must go to each and every province, 7 of them, I'm sorry, 9 of them, so that I will introduce Comrade Cyril and say Comrades, I have taken a decision. It's not because there is a pressure or anything; I have taken a decision to resign. I'm resigning on this date and we agreed that we are going to come to tell you this. That we have no fight. The fight must end in the ANC. We are together. We are going to be working together.

And the second thing that I said I would be doing will be to, I was the Chairperson Troyke of SADC, that I would love to go there and introduce Comrade President. I said I know because these are my colleagues, I know what they think about us. If I did so, I would say continue working with him.

And the third, I said there was a summit coming. I would love to go to AU and do exactly the same because again, many people I have worked with there I know how they think about us. So that, when Comrade Cyril comes in they know there is no fight. And I said finally I would love to go and introduce him to BRIC's countries. And that would not therefore take a short time.

And I thought that was a proposal I was making, much as I was not happy that I was told I must leave the ANC. I have been in this ANC for a long time. I have worked, I've never committed, I've never sold out, I never did anything. Why at the end, I must be to Id you go. But okay, for the sake of the ANC. And then I said, therefore the meeting we are having tomorrow of the NEC; my proposal that I included here it must be cancelled, so that we don't have the meeting which I had heard was going to take a decision to force me to resign. So that we have a situation wherein this transition takes place, it does not leave wounds that will never cure. Comrade President agreed. We agreed with everything I think. But the time the Secretary-General came in, we agreed. We briefed him. He also agreed.

And we agreed, wonderful. And I think we parted therefore with that in mind. One, that the meeting would be cancelled; the SG would make a statement reporting on the meeting of the 3 of us; that statement would contain me having put a date for me to resign, blah, blah, blah. We last met on that day. Up to this day, we never met again.

And the only thing that happened I think was the meeting, which was cancelled, but the proposal never saw the light of day. There was no news item about it. Nothing. And nobody has ever come to talk to me again.

When I was called by the Top 6 to meet at Mahlambandlovu, coming to force me to resign; leaving how the meeting went; nobody in the Top 6 said, by the way, the meeting that you had with the President and Secretary-General, this was our response. I couldn't believe that all of you did not know. In fact when you came, I thought you would also respond to this issue and say look we disagree with you and I would say fine.

But that to me indicated a character of my leaders that were coming in. Here I came with a serious proposal; which proposal will help the organisation and my leaders did not look at it. Because for me I had an impression that it was not just the 2 of them; they must have talked to the Top 6, or to some in the Top 6 who must have said sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. And with a ... I mean, I've been with the comrades, no respect to say let us go to him and say look sorry we can't take that decision. Just forget about this fellow, let him go.

I took the decision then that I would not meet the President on these matters, because to me, for him even alone to come back to say hey, my brother, I did not succeed; they don't want, or whatever. Or there is this or that. Just disappeared. Where is the respect between the two of us? How are we going to do this in future? How are we going to ...? How, I always say, if you've been a President, the other one can come one day asking how did you deal with this or something?

It just died a death. I didn't think we were taking the organisation seriously. And therefore, I will remain a member, fine. And that is what has made me to say, no. I don't want that we should meet with them. Because lm not sure if anything I discuss with them... that for me was a very serious discussion. Can I discuss anything serious and hope that he's with me? I don't know.

So, I just wanted to make this point because I told the comrades in KZN because a Commissary had come asking for a meeting and I had said to the comrades that came to me that no, I will not meet with the President. To me, that issue was very serious. Many comrades in the leadership, you know they were calling me names at that time. So I said, fine, if that's how the comrades think they must treat me, that's okay.

I just thought I should make this point because I had made the point that Comrade President was absolutely correct. He had asked to see me many times and I said no. We met in Durban. We were from a meeting. We met. We were in the same place and there was absolutely no problem as he has correctly remembered. But I had taken a decision that no, because the things that followed that one made the situation worse. I just mentioned one where I was told, not only one place, I have been told in many places.

But I must also say, the attempts have been made to my life and I don't want to talk about that here in this platform. Probably another platform, but you must know; those things have made me to take a view.

But having said that Comrades, I think if you deal with the issue of how this Commission, insofar as me is concerned, has been handled, then you will find a way to help me; otherwise I think I will be selling everything I did as a fighter in this country, as a fighter to liberate this country. But you, you are more wiser. You may have a way to handle the matter. Thank you very much Chair. Sorry that I took so long.